Mon, 2016-12-19 16:20
Description in English:
How ancient Vedic science is dictating the future of science & technology for humanity. 19 December 2016: Renowned scholar and expert on Hinduism Rajiv Malhotra interviews Sri Paramahamsa Nithyananda Swami about the future of science, and how it is changing due to extraordinary knowledge rooted in the Vedas, which is tens of thousands of years old. There are many cases where information from the Vedas like astronomical calculations, have only just been recently verified scientifically since only now modern technology has evolved sufficiently to verify them. Which makes us wonder if that’s just the tip of the iceberg: what other scientific knowledge in the Vedas is yet to be discovered? There is a huge ocean of knowledge in the ancient Vedas which are today being re-discovered, which promises huge breakthroughs in science, physics, math, medicine, psychology, and all areas of human potential. Many of these discoveries have been recently tested in laboratory environments, and totally overturn many scientific and physical limitations we thought were impossible – from levitation, to materialization, to abilities ranging from telepathy, remote viewing, to reading blindfolded. How is all this happening, and what is in store for scientists, physicists, and universities and medical institutions worldwide? How can science catch up and attempt to measure these happenings? A dynamic, path-breaking interview by Rajiv Malhotra of His Holiness, Sri Paramahamsa Nithyananda. Watch, share and like the video's and Subscribe to our channel to be notified of the next upload. click http://bit.ly/20j90wr to subscribe. Website and Social Media: http://www.nithyananda.org http://www.nithyananda.tv http://www.innerawakening.org https://twitter.com/SriNithyananda https://www.facebook.com/ParamahamsaNithyananda
Tags in English:
Agama, Hinduism, Vedas, Shruti, Smriti, Sadashiva, Shakta Agamas, Vaishnav Agamas, Shaiva Agamas, Upagamas, Kamika Agama, Adishankara, Shakta Srividya Sampradaya, Vedanta Sampradaya, Viveka Chudamani, Shiva Samhita, Veda-Agamas, Shaastra Pramana, Apta Pramana, Atma Pramana, Sakshi Pramana, Sanatana Hindu Dharma, Satori, Hinduism, Practicing Hindus, Patanjali yoga sutra, yoga, Macchindranātha, Gorakhnatha, Sadashiva, Ksemaraja, Patanjali, Rishis, Munis, Kinnara, Kimburuda, Gandharva, Gandhara, Yaksha, Devas, Ganas, Siddhas, Gyana Rasa Vada, mandala, guru, Angkor Wat, Pancha Bhuta Sthalas, archaeology, Shruti Sampradaya and Smriti Sampradaya, astronomical, astrological details, Mudras, Pagans, Paganism, shastras, metaphysics, quantum entanglement, entanglement, living Enlightened Master, deity, Ganga, Divine Presence, Shiva avatar, Kurma purana, spiritual alchemy processes, Deity, energy darshans, Shaktinipaata, Jnana rasavada, Siddhi, Shakti, mirroring neuron, Spiritual entanglement, manifesting powers, Prana Pratishta, God, Deity, Sadashivatva, living enlightenment, Rishis, Bharadwaj Gotra, suffering, karma, karmic law, reincarnation, Gurukul, Parampara, Sampradaya, gratitude, Swarga, punya, paap, heaven, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhists, Dalai Lama, occult, supranormal, paranormal, Ramleela,
Transcript in English:
R M (Rajeev Malhotra):
Thank you Swamiji, for this opportunity to discuss with you and for the 19 days of tremendous learning that you have provided. What I thought I would like to do is, summarise what I’ve learnt, especially the whole system of Agama, the science of Agama which I think is very unique and you brought it back. I had no idea about all these things before, and I’ll sequence my different notes I’ve taken and ask you questions to clarify, understandings. Many of the people who are present in the hall, we have about 1100 to 1200 attendees at this Sadashivoham event from all over the world, and many of them know these things, but it will help the people on Facebook where I have a large number of Facebook followers of various pages that are watching this. And to my, to those who are watching I just want to preface with a few remarks to clarify.
First of all, this talk is a part of a series called Dialogue with the Masters. I’ve also interviewed the Kanchi Shankaracharya and various people like that. And I will be explaining what I feel is absolutely distinct and unique and extraordinary about Swamiji. And I don’t want people to think that this is any negative about other Gurus because we are very clear we respect all our Gurus. And each Guru, when I interview, I want to highlight what their teachings are all about. And I found that having known Swamiji for some time, the more I learn the more I feel something very extraordinary, very unique in him and his teachings which I want you to know.
And something I should tell you upfront. Swamiji, when he said, “lets have this interview”, said, “You can ask me anything - provocative, whatever you want.”
This is very interesting and very unusual. A lot of Gurus want me to submit an advance list of questions which then get filtered and then they say don’t ask this, don’t ask that and here is a Guru who said, ‘you can ask anything’. This is very interesting because even two minutes before the curtain opened, I said Swamiji I will go this way.
He said, “No, no, you don’t even have to tell me, you ask me whatever you want”. This is very, very interesting and those who are present here can testify that we have had several days of open Q & A with all the people here; you can stand up, ask questions and Swamiji answers. This is extremely important in this particular day and Swamiji, as I explain the concept of entanglement with the spiritual Master it will become clear why this is actually scientific process, of closeness, proximity, friendship with the Guru and so on. So let me start Swamiji. Swamiji maybe you can bless us, this discussion and say a few words.
nithyānandeśvari madhyamām |
asmat āchārya paryantām
vande Guru paramparām ||
Swamiji: I welcome Rajeevji, and everyone here. Very happy to be here, especially after almost 25 days of break first time I’m interacting with the outer world. 19 days of Sadashivoham and 4-5 days before, I’m only spending time with Sadashivoham participants. Today is the first time after 20-25 days public Satsang or public program opening up; very happy to be here with Rajeev Malhotraji. And let me give more time for him to ask questions and then I’ll get back to all of you while I am answering. Please continue.
RM: Thank you Swamiji. Swamiji I want to start with Agama, because it seems that that is the heart and centre of Hinduism and also your teachings and manifest in this great ashram, Agamas coming alive. Agamas, I would like you to explain – what they are? How they relate to Vedas? – because people know Vedas and not Agamas as well, and why they are so important and the very heart of Hinduism as it is practised.
Swamiji: First thing, Vedas are the ultimate, superior authority for the Hindus. Vedas are like a pure science, where the ultimate truths are explained, but Agamas are the scriptures where the applied technology, the applied science is expanded. Actually all the Hindu bodies, whether it is Kashi Vidvat Sabha or the Akhada Parishad, all the Hindu bodies accept Vedas and Agamas as Shruti. Vedas and Agamas, Vedagamas are given the status of Shruti and everything else follows like a Smritis and they have their own status and respect. Agamas are directly revealed by Sadashiva; I should say, more like a practical manual of how to, what to, where to, when to. All these detail is answered with the right context, giving enough of understanding and I should say in a more sympathetic, compassionate way, with a lot of concern for human beings.
RM: User Friendly.
Swamiji: User friendly, tremendous user friendly with no threat of hell and all that. Throughout the Agama, everywhere even if we miss something, we are only given completion and Prayaschitta, not punishment.
RM: So Swamiji, all castes are allowed?
Swamiji: Yes, Agama is very clear, not only all castes, all beings.
Swamiji: Animals. That is why the Agama based temples, you will see many temples where ant worshipped Sadashiva and became enlightened, elephant worshipped Sadashiva and became enlightened. Not only all human beings, all genders, all BEINGS, living beings are given possibility and Agama is the only book where I have very clearly studied, read, Sadashiva says all BEINGS should be initiated. Even the animals if they reach you for initiation a Guru cannot avoid, Guru cannot deny; no one is denied including BEINGS.
RM: So Swamiji, the Agamas are for Shaivism, Vaishnavism, Tantra, Shakta all the paramparas?
Swamiji: Yes there are Agamas, Shakta Agamas, Vaishnav Agamas, Shaiva Agamas, but all Agamas non-controversially agree, it is delivered by Sadashiva.
RM: So Swamiji, there must be hundreds of them, thousands of them. How many roughly are they?
Swamiji: I should say, available, available Agamas are 117.
Swamiji: 117 we were able to get it as on now. There are Upagamas which goes to something like a thousand. Means the Upagamas are same Agamas in a very expanded way, more like a practical manual. For example, Kamika Agama - this Agama gives how the Ganesha should be worshiped, how Shiva should be connected, how you should connect with Devi. The Upagama in the same Kamika Agama, how they’ve told all this, the Upagama takes it up and organises it. Like if a temple has a seven Ganeshas, for all seven Ganeshas they repeat the Ganesha puja. It is like a... if you read the Upagama and you can go on be doing it and go. So, there are Upagamas also. I should say all put together, it’s at least, at least 2 crore verses available.
RM: Wow! 2 crore! 20 million!!
Swamiji: 20 million verses available.
RM: Wow!! So, it’s the largest body of Hindu text; more quantity than Vedas, Upanishads, Itihas.
Swamiji: Actually, if you see the quantity described, surely Vedas are larger body, but available if you see the quantity described Vedas have a thousands of Shakhas (branches) but all of them are not available.
RM: They are lost.
Swamiji: If you see based on availability, surely I can comfortably, without any controversy I can say – Agamas are the largest body available.
RM: Excellent, very good. So Swamiji, you also mentioned that Adishankara went to Kashmir and learnt Agama.
Swamiji Yes. Adishankara went to Kashmir, was initiated into Agamic tradition by Abhinavagupta. There are enough records. There are enough of historical, biographical references where Abhinavagupta initiates Adishankara into Shakta tradition; otherwise howcome suddenly the whole Shakta Srividya Sampradaya manifests from Vedanta Sampradaya. See the whole Vedantic thought current of Adishankara, and suddenly the whole Srividya, Mahameru and Devi worship, everything is manifesting. I should say, Adishankara connected all dots, all traditions and built that proper Sanatana Hindu Dharma to the core.
RM: So the fashionable subset of Advaita Vedanta which is very theoretical, abstract, other worldly.
Swamiji: I should call them Neo-Vedantis.
RM: That is not really the complete picture. That is just a withdrawal part of it. But engaging in the pujas and in the whole rituals and so on is very important; including the vedantins ought to appreciate that. So Vedantin should not think of this as something sort of low level and they have gone to some high level because lot of Vedantins talk like that ‘we are intellectual we are very superior. These guys, these are meant for poor people and uneducated people who do rituals.’ There is this anti ritual sort of a sniggering attitude like arrogance. Would you like to comment why the rituals are actually really heart of who we are?
Swamiji: I should tell you, Ramana Maharishi, Ramakrishna, the great Masters are answering this question. Somebody goes and asks Ramana Maharishi, ‘why should we worship God in the form of deities, in the form of Archavatar?’
Ramana Maharishi says very clearly, ‘as long as you think you are inside the body, you have a form, you can connect to God only in the form’. Other than that, all the other things you can use like a time pass. You see how you evolve that is the way your experience about the God will evolve.
RM: Very good!
Swamiji: As long as we think we are body, after this interview if you’re going to go and have breakfast better to do our worship.
RM: No, that is... this is wonderful.
Swamiji: The basic truth is starting from where we are and reaching where we need to be; just because we know where we need to be, not fantasising deluding already where we need to be.
RM: Yes, and it seems that some of the Shaastras are making a statement from a state of consciousness which is very evolved, but the person who is receiving it is not in that state; it’s a good goal but he can’t imagine that he can bypass all this.
Swamiji: And Shankara makes a beautiful statement in Vivekachudamani – ‘if you do puja even for one kalpa without knowing the context you will not have result. But nobody understands that word, without knowing context if you do only you will not have result. With context, if you do you will have result.
RM: So, this takes me to the topic of science, because science is about verifying, testing having results. So the reason I call this Agama science when we promoted this talk, this Q&A, is because there are two requirements for science. It should be based on some theoretical frame work and for that we have Shaastra. And the theoretical frame work should be saying if you cause this, this will be the effect. If you do this, this is going to be the result. It’s really science is a theory of causation. This cause produces that result; that’s what science is. So Agama says the same thing.
Agama says you must do these procedures you’ll get these results. It’s very clear on that. So it satisfies the first requirement of science. Second requirement is that you should be able to test and verify whether it really works. So if somebody says they’re Hindu, they really cannot deny the importance of Agama, as a verifiable Shaastra and cannot down-play the importance of what you are doing because you are reviving, rediscovering these, testing them.
Swamiji: And also I found at least 3-4 references, Agamas are not even separate set of scriptures, in the Vedas itself, from Shiva Samhita starts the whole Agama. So we should, actually we can’t even use two separate words Vedas and Agamas, it’s Vedagamas; because what is accepted as Vedas - Shiva Samhita, Agama starts in Shiva Samhita. So we should only say Vedagamas.
RM: So the practices, rituals, symbols very, very intricate elaborate practices could be considered similar to like modern technology, these protocols when you are setting up wifi, all kind of complicated stuff, that you know a person who’s an engineer knows it makes sense, it’s necessary. Somebody else who is using the benefit of it, driving a car doesn’t know all the engineering that goes into it. He might not think it is important, but it is important.
Swamiji: Sometimes, not only he does not understand it’s important, he starts making fun of the people who are making the car.
RM: So making fun of Agama priest or somebody who says this temple should be designed according to Agama, the marriage should be done according to it, the whole worship of Deity, if making fun of this or thinking it is unimportant it is sort of like some tech person saying that engineering is unimportant but I love to drive a car; it is that sort of thing. So, the Shaastra, now you also mentioned that there is shaastrapraman, the shaastra as the knowledge source and Apta Pramana when there are exemplaries, could be Avatar like maybe Krishna or could be a Rishi like Patanjali, their experience has also been written. Then after studying these you have to internalise and experience it for yourself, reproduce this thing which is Atma Pramana. And only after doing these three you can go and teach to others which is Sakshi Pramana. This is what you explain, beautiful.
Swamiji: Basically Vedas and Agamas are considered as Shaastra Pramana, it is non-controversial. Anyone who is the follower of Sanatana Hindu Dharma, the accepting the superiority, authority of the Vedagama, is the basic thing. And Masters who accept the authority of the Vedagamas only can be called as Aaptas. Anyone and everyone cannot be called as Aaptas and all their words cannot be taken as Aapta Pramana. Masters who accept the authority of the Vedas – Shaastra Pramana, like Ramakrishna, Ramana Maharishi, those great beings, Patanjali, Krishna, the beings, the great Masters, exemplaries, who accept the authority of the Vedagamas are Aaptas. Their input is very much needed because time to time they make the whole thing again alive.
RM: New context.
Swamiji: They bring the whole Sanatana Hindu Dharma as real, in every new context. So Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana are the authorities for Sanatana Hindu Dharma. Anybody who gets any Atma Pramana, they have to acid wash their Atma Pramana with Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana. Whatever stands that acid wash only should be shared with the world. See, many time, many people say, ‘Ohhh! It’s my experience. I don’t need to be bothered about Shaastra Pramana and Apta Pramana.’ NOOO. Many time your own experience maybe even good for you. I’m not saying you don’t have experience, it maybe only good for you. If you want to teach it to the world, it should stand the scrutiny of Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana because sometime you might have got a Satori. Without knowingly practicing vegetarian but unknowingly you lived a vegetarian life style you got Satori. If you say I will not refer the Shaastras, you will not know vegetarianism is a prerequisite for Satori, you will not teach that to your next generation. Only if you refer the Shaastras, if you refer the Aapta Pramana and Shaastra Pramana you will know, yes, vegetarianism is basic requirement and I was practicing it without my knowledge.
RM: So, if I haven’t studied Shaastra but I somehow experienced something, I fully don’t understand why I experienced it. I... just coincidental also, could be past life, could be whatever; so it may not be fully responsible to go and teach other people.
Swamiji: Adhikaratva of teaching comes only if you scrutinize all your experiences with Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana and your Atma Pramana, your personal experience stands the scrutiny of the Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana.
RM: So, basically what I understand is, teachers, and there are some of them, important ones, who go around saying ‘I have this experience, I don’t believe in Shaastra, it is my experience, I’m teaching you.’ What they are really saying is ‘my Atma Pramana is enough to teach you, without reference to the Shaastra Pramana or the AApta Pramana’
Swamiji: Which is dangerous!!
RM: Which is very irresponsible.
Swamiji: Not only irresponsible, many time dangerous. See, there are some asanas should not be done by people who are drinking alcohol, there are some pranayamas should not be done by people who are consuming non veg. This Guru, himself when he was practising he might have been a natural vegetarian and natural non alcoholic.
RM: But did not know the cause-effect link.
Swamiji: That was also a reason why he got the experience. So, when you do not read the clear science it is like a compounder becoming a doctor. In Indian villages it happens all the time. Because he lived with a doctor, he slowly starts thinking, ‘Oh for headache black tablet, for stomach pain yellow tablet, for knee pain green tablet.’ As long as the pharmaceutical companies don’t change the colour things are ok. What will happen if the company changes the colour? So, many time, when we deny the authority of the Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana, we are behaving irresponsibly and it is dangerous especially for the seekers and followers. I always insist the seekers and followers wherever you go, even if you go to an astrologer, or a vastu consultant or yoga, anything spiritual, always find whether they have the Adhikaratva to teach. Adhikaratva, authority to teach comes only if they acid wash their experience, their knowledge, their understanding with the original Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana.
RM: This is why I am very glad; every time we have had a discussion you have said I will show you the exact original source. And you are going to publish it in a book and give everybody a copy.
Swamiji: Already the major things we have published, the remaining things are also ready, which is coming out, which is getting released, printed, printed, printed and getting out. Whether the food you eat in our ashram, or the dress you wear, or the jewelleries you are given, or the way you are made to sit in mandala, or the bhasma or the kum kum we are giving, or the rituals we are conducting, or every process I am doing, or every concept I am explaining, I can give you Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana and my Atma Pramana I can make that as a Sakshi Pramana for you.
RM: That’s very important.
Swamiji: I am very clear and I also wanted to put this on record, there are many of my Atma Pramanas I have not yet found Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana, so I am not revealing them. I am just keeping them, wait. Let me only teach first whatever I can acid wash, whatever stands the scrutiny of Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana, let that be presented to the world first and made into Sakshi Pramana.
RM: So basically, your experience only should be taught if it is filtered through the text.
Swamiji: Yes! Acid wash, you should use the word. That’s the right word I use; acid washed by the Shaastra Pramana and Aapta Pramana. It should stand the scrutiny of both. Only then it should be shared with the world; that is the only non dangerous safe path. I can tell you with all my integrity, either I have done good to my followers or I’ve not done bad to any of my followers. I’ve done good, if not I’ve not done bad. Because everything, I’m very integrated, with all my integrity I can tell, I stand by the Shaastras and Aaptas as the first priority.
RM: So here is my challenge to all the viewers who have doubts or cynicism about why so many rituals, why these symbols, what is going on, if you are a Hindu and if you’ll subscribe to Hinduism, you have to subscribe by definition to the Agama Shaastra. And so my challenge is look at all the processes all the rituals Swamiji is doing, all the things happening in his ashram, check them against the Shaastras and if you feel something is not correct only then you have a right to raise an issue. Otherwise....
Swamiji: And we are also open if you feel anything, please bring, we will give you the right references and answers. We are always ready to show the authority of the Shaastra pramana and Aapta pramana. If you reject the Shashtra Pramana itself then we have no business for you.
RM: Then you are not a Hindu.
Swamiji: Not only that, we don’t want to talk to you. We are not interested.
RM: No, no, that is correct
Swamiji: As long as.... you see, there are people who are interested in learning. I am ready for all seekers questions. I’m not ready for people who reject outright the whole Shaastra itself. Then I don’t have a business with them. Then you go and better you do what you want to do.
RM: So the empirical foundation of all the practices is verified two ways. One is it produces the results being promised and secondly, it is in compliance with the Shaastra. As long as that is the case there is no logical scientific basis for you to reject. Unless somebody is cynical, ignorant, influenced by some stupid media or somebody else, if you are a sensible person you should rely on your own testimony. You should come here check it out for yourself. This what I tell people when they ask me what about this so and so said this and so and so said that, I tell them that is irrational and unscientific unless you’ve gone and checked it out yourself. So you have to come here and makeup your own mind based on what you actually see. That is very important message.
Swamiji: See whether the rudraksha mala you are wearing or the sacred thread we are giving or the mantras we chant or the process people go through or the yoga they do, everything, unless I find original Shaastra Pramana and supporting Aapta Pramana, I do not teach, I do not share. If I see any gap anywhere, I put them in backburner. I tell them OK, I am not rejecting, but I am not going to teach this now. Let’s do it slowly, next step.
RM: No this is very clear.
Swamiji: And even the spiritual alchemy products, including the thread colour we use. I have the original references of the Shaastra Pramana, and already, I think even few days before I showed a full five files, a bunch of files, where one by one by one, every step, a clear explanation and original references. All the things we do, whether it is action or thinking process or any Kriyas, everywhere, I put Shaastra pramana and Aapta pramana as the first priority.
RM: Very good, so it is very authentic with the Agamas as the founding principles which is clear. So Swamiji, this means that people should not translate our texts, and our stories and our processes as myth. The word myth is very, very dangerous because myth says it is very arbitrary I can do it this way, you are doing it that way, it’s all myth anyway, who knows what is the truth. This is really demeaning our culture.
Swamiji: Not only that, this is the way we ourselves started losing trust on our traditions.
RM: Yes, by translating as mythology. And lot of our post modernised Hindus have started adopting that language. They think it does not matter we just talk like that but it propagates and gets worse and worse. People really dilute and get distorted of their own understanding. So I think a large number of Hindus, maybe 50-60 per cent of the Hindus themselves are not really understanding Hinduism properly. Therefore, understanding the Agamas from a real authority is very necessary to become proper Hindu. Hindus need to.....
Swamiji: Practicing Hindus, if they want to see the fruits and results of Hinduism, I’ll strongly promote get back to Vedagamas.
RM: So Hindus need to be converted to Hinduism, before we say we could convert other people.
Swamiji: Hindus need to start living Hinduism.
RM: So Swamiji the scope of Agamas in also in temples, how they are constructed, location of the temple, orientation, marriage.
Swamiji: All the rituals, houses, even where we stay, houses, how a city should be, how a village should be, how palace should be, a details, I should say people ask me why should we follow. I should say if you start only you will understand, so much of time will not be wasted in reinventing. See, this whole Agamas comes from such higher space, even if you do R&D, after two hundred years you will land up same. If you bring the Agamas and start using you will not be wasting two hundred years of R&D. That’s all I should say.
RM: So, Swamiji, you said there is also Agamas for yoga, which is not only Patanjali yoga sutra; there’s a whole Agamas about it.
Swamiji: Actually, Patanjali himself refers Agamas as the source of yoga, at least in three places. At least in three places he refers. Not only that, even if you see Patanjali yoga sutra, it is more like notes. He is talking as if there are many ideas of yoga already exist in all the disciples understanding. He is not getting into the details. The way he is describing shows very clearly already the whole yoga system existed. The source of that yoga system is Agamas.
RM: And he doesn’t give any asana details but the Agamas do.
Swamiji: Agamas give 800 hundred asanas which we have picked up. Fortunately we were able to collect those palm leaves and those manuscripts. Now we have also translated into English. It is already ready, very soon it will be uploaded in the internet for free.
RM: So I just want people to know that I have got a peek of that soft copy. So we are going to get 800 asanas from the Agamas.
Swamiji: In hard copy and soft copy, both.
RM: The original translation, how to do it, everything.
Swamiji: See the.., first we put the original verse, Shaastra Pramana, where they describe to raise the right leg, left leg, all that detail. That verse is translated into English. Then Aapta Pramana, great Gurus like Matsyendranātha/ Macchindranātha Gorakhnatha, Aaptas in the field of yoga, Patanjali, all of them are Aaptas in the field of yoga. If they have spoken about the same asana, what is their description, their understanding, they give sometimes little input, they give little more details like, when you do it this is way you should do it, this is what you will face as a consequence, all that. So that Aapta Pramana is added, then Atma Pramana, my own experience - how I got it from my Gurus.
RM: So this negates all the scholarship which is becoming fashionable. Lot of people have written history of yoga that this Iyangars Guru got it from the YMCA, and they got it from Western athletics and this Christian yoga that Jesus Christ started it, all of that. Because this is straight from Sadashiva and the Agama.
Swamiji: Straight from Sadashiva, with Aapta references. See, original Agama, Shaastra Pramana and some asanas are described even in Upanishads. So, Vedas and Agamas in this wherever this original statements are there, that is Shaastra Pramana. Then, great masters like Macchindranātha, Gorakhnath, Ksemaraja and Patanjali, these great masters, yoga masters, their Aapta Pramana, means the words from them and then my Atma Pramana how I received from my Gurus and what I experienced when I practiced.
RM: This means Swamiji, that if somebody goes to United Nations and says that yoga has nothing to do with Hinduism, basically what he is doing is either he is disconnecting Agamas from Hinduism and says Agamas can be, you can play with myths and all that, you don’t need that or he is saying that somehow this has nothing to do with Agama. So he is somehow rupturing, disconnecting yoga from its roots.
Swamiji: Surely, no one can say yoga has nothing to do with Hinduism. Yoga is rooted in Hinduism. You see, the fruits can be shared with the whole world, I agree that I agree 100% fruits can be shared with the whole world. But the tree is rooted in Sanatana Hindu Dharma in Vedagamas. I’m very clear about it. Actually, if we are trying to cut our own roots, are we not too superficial and not having the larger vision about our future and the next generation.
RM: Yes. Only somebody, who is just sort of taught cut and paste through some books here and there could be so irresponsible and also opportunistic because they are probably talking what the world wants to hear, rather than being responsible. Maybe they will get some awards, maybe they’ll become famous, they will get some more money. So this is more of an opportunistic dilution of Hinduism which is very sad because some of our own people are doing it. So I also want to say that I’m very happy that you have picked up the project of not only the text part of Agama, compiling all the Agamas, translating them and we are going to do, Infinity Foundation India, is going to do a series of conferences on Agamas with your blessings.
RM: And Janardhan, Janardhan Sharma who is doing the translation project here is going to be part of that. We are going to launch every year for several years, until it is really established that this is the heart of Hinduism and this is where the expertise lies. That is one project we are very happy. Other thing I heard you say...
Swamiji: We have, we have a three terabyte material collected Rajivji on Agamas. One terabyte is already uploaded, other two terabytes we are cleaning up. Work is going on, but whatever we have uploaded also we have not completely translated. There are some organisations have done some part and we are not doing that same part repetitively. There are much, I should say, eighty percent (80%) of the Agamas is still not translated. So that eighty percent we are picking up and giving priorities like immediate needs – cooking, agriculture, clothes, jewellery, our lifestyle related thought currents, all these parts we are picking up. Already fifty people are working, now we are expanding it to at least 200 people. More and more we will be translating, true to the original and uploading the whole thing freely in our website ‘Hinduism Now’ for free of cost. Anybody can download, learn, research, propagate and enjoy.
RM: And this is the response to the Murthy Classics Library, where their plan is to take 500 texts and get western scholars like Pollock, who have no connection with the practice, no connection with Hinduism..
Swamiji: I strongly feel people who practice Hinduism should translate. Practicing academicians only has the authority, Adhikaratva to translate and propagate.
RM: So this is a phenomenal, it’s got so many values, one of them is the battle we are fighting with the western Indologists who are non-practitioners, who don’t even have proper respect.
Swamiji: In our Sanga, Rajivji, I am very clear, only if he is a practicing Agamic priest, like he has a temple where he goes every morning and evening, does his rituals, who is sincere to the lifestyle of Agama, only his translation I agree, I accept.
RM: This is very good. So Wendy Doniger, for those of you who are not familiar with, looks at all of our practices through the lens of sexual abuse, sex and Sheldon Pollock looks through power structure, power asymmetry, oppression and things like that. Neither of them look at it as spiritually legitimate. So removing the spiritual legitimacy has been, why have they become very popular with the Left because the Left thinks they’ve got a weapon to hit Hinduism.
So this project is our response because we are saying from proper authority and I am sure the Akhada Parishad will also support.
Swamiji: Yes. It has already supported by Akhada Parishad, already supported by Akhada Parishad.
RM: This will become the official, how to be a Hindu, this kind of series of texts “how to be a Hindu” once...
Swamiji: And I am very clear our text should be translated only by practicing people;
RM: Very good.
Swamiji: Because by practice, you will have a clear deeper understanding of the context.
RM: Yes, So Swamiji, the other great project is, you are building almost its like a theme park, with all the deities, Lingas or all the nakshatras, all the planets everything properly represented, explained. Every Agama ritual done to find the material even though it’s very rare to find, your people have to go round the country looking for rare herbs or whatever; but you are doing this very systematically. Can you tell us about the vision you have once it is complete.
Swamiji: Yes, yes, see basically Sadashiva gives a very elaborate description of the way the celestial energies, divine energies of other planes like a Rishis, Munis, Kinnara, Kimburuda, Gandharva, Gandhara, Yaksha and Devas, Ganas, all of them.; and how they practice and specialise certain things. Like the Gandharvas are lord of music. Ganas are the lord of herbs. Siddhas are the lord of the spiritual alchemies, Jnana-Rasavaada. So by describing about all of them, he also describes the process they all do. So here in this campus I am trying to bring all those plants, herbs and their Deities. How they are described, the form of them, how it is described by Sadashiva, matters; you can’t just imagine and connect with them. How they are described, if you remember them, I strongly believe I should say my belief is supported with my experience. When you remember them the way they are described in the Agamas, they do respond to us.
RM: So it is provable, verifiable.
Swamiji: It is provable, verifiable. So I’m trying to establish all of that, around thousand, one thousand, the divine beings described by Sadashiva, we have already converted that into painting, means drawing; now it is getting converted into a Deity. And you have seen already one part establishing is started, with the Shiva Linga they worshiped, the type of puja they did, and the plants and herbs related to them will be planted around them.
RM: So Swamiji I want to make clear to people, that the idea of a museum is different because museum is a dead civilization. The idea of museum started when west conquered so many civilizations, they found strange artefacts, they could not explain, understand using their own lens and they were too arrogant to understand the lens of the natives. So they brought all these things and they needed a place to showcase them. So museum is a showcase of conquered civilizations. And basically this is a museum of ancient Egypt, this is a museum of native Americans and what not. So we are not here building a museum but living.
Swamiji: We are reviving the whole thing and bringing back to life.
RM: So this is a living society, living samaj, living Sangha of the ancient Vedic way of life. That is what you are building. This is a very unusual.
Swamiji: Living presentation of the world’s most ancient, still living civilization.
RM: So this is... so now another thing that very interesting conversation I had with you which we should discuss is – you mentioned that the temples like Angkor Wat in Cambodia is actually a mandala, when you look at it from the sky.
Swamiji: Actually it is mandala.
RM: And Chidambaram temple mandala, so the mandalas you gave us, were individual, small, and there is a certain energy, certain scientific purpose and we are learning how to use them and get the benefit as per Agamas. So can you explain this huge mandala called the temple where obviously it is not for one person but for a whole society maybe?
Swamiji: See, our body itself is a mandala. Earth, water, fire, air and space all the elements, if they are balanced not only will we be healthy , we will be radiating powers of Sadashiva. So, all mandalas start with our body – Pindanda - microcosm. If you have any imbalance then the small mandalas are made for the individual to get to the balance and peak possibility of Sadashivatva. A Guru sees the disciple, oh this energy, this energy is disturbed then he makes a Mandala energises it. The energy put in the mandala and one unique thing, the cosmic energy can be infused into a matter and given to somebody and that can do a strong process on the receiver and expected result can be generated on the being is the science unique to Agama and Hinduism. It’s unique to Agama and Hinduism. We have successfully established this beyond any placebo effect, much more than many accepted pharmaceutical company medicines, percentage & ratio. First thing, when it is given for an individual, it is called Mandala. Sometimes the whole city may need a new life, then the Mandala for the whole city is built, that is temple.
RM: So temple is a process for a large number of people.
Swamiji: Sometimes you may need Mandala for the whole civilisation. Angkor Wat is the Madala built for the whole civilisation. Even in India, if you see the Google map, you can see, many of the major Hindu temples especially is connected, like the ‘Pancha Bhuta Sthalas’. They sit in a proper Mandala style, with clear corners. Now only with Google map we are studying, but in those days how they did it nobody knows.
RM: This means that the whole archaeology to be redone.
RM: Because western archaeology which has influenced Indian archaeologists, basically remove the sacredness, and the way they are interpreting the temple, they’ll appreciate the metallurgy was good, stone carving was good but they don’t understand what was the purpose, they do not understand the sacred purpose.
Swamiji: I tell you, without the sacred purpose we cannot understand Indian civilisation
RM: And you know the archaeological survey of India, being part of a secular government establishment, their rules say, that when something becomes under the control of the archaeological department, you cannot do pujas there because then you violating the secular thing. So, for instance in Mahabalipuram there are these huge carving, they are actually deities,
Swamiji: Mandalas, mandalas.
RM: Mandalas, but because the ASI controls them no puja is being done. This is... these are things we have to be conscious of. To bring to the attention of our own government, that when some, when something is discovered which is clearly sacred then either the archaeological survey should have a department that knows Agamas and understand them or they should turn it over to somebody like the Akhada Parishad and let them take over and do the pujas once more. This I think will be a very big help. Another point I wanted to make Swamiji, is you’ve discussed that the chronology of the west when they look at a text and how they date it. The basic flaw is they look at, when this particular piece of paper was written, but they don’t realise that it was authored much earlier. And Sadashiva authored something and then manifestations of Sadashiva revived it, so maybe the original leaf or something on which it was written we don’t have, but the revival is not the date of origin.
Swamiji: And one more thing, we are a Shruti Sampradaya and Smriti Sampradaya. We never noted down, we never used to pen down in those days. Penning down started much later. The only best way to date our scriptures is, fortunately all scriptures record the astronomical, astrological details in their scriptures for various reasons. Like the Ramayana - elaborately records the day of Ramas birth and when he left for Vanavasa, everything. So we should date only based on that astronomical, astrological references. Only that should be used as a method for dating. Even in the Agama there are many references of these astronomical, astrological details, we should only use them.
RM: So the Sky is like a clock, and we should always refer how the clock was looking.
Swamiji: See, one thing, the intricacy with which our Masters describe, I can be 100% sure, unless they are seeing it on that day, it cannot be described. It cannot be predicted at all. It can only be described if they are seeing. So we should take that as a standard, and date our scriptures based on this scale.
RM: So Swamiji, the Agamas are individual like, codified procedures and so on. But there must be a grammer or a language beneath which is common. Is it a possibility that You would one day develop what is grammar of the Agamas? For instance take a flower with your right hand and move it around the Prasad and offer it. Then I am doing this for something other object another object. There is a construct for doing this which can be applied to various situations. Mudras are also some kind of grammatical construct. So is there...
Swamiji: Some of the great masters, two, three I should say, Patanjali and Ksemaraja, they have all tried and they are successful to certain level. I will also surely add whatever little I could add, doing this dictionary for the Agama to become a Sakshi Pramana.
RM: Because Swamiji, then a person will have some way of understanding that there are some things similar, some patterns are similar in various procedures and why they are being done, why it is a flower and it cannot be made of silk or paper or synthetic. Why it has to be a real flower. Why this is rice and it cannot be popcorn, or something else. I had Agehananda Bharati, who was a Austrian who became a sadhu then U-turned back and abused Hinduism. He was a professor of Anthropology in the US, when I was there in 1970-71. And he used to do all these Homa and he used to say, ‘don’t worry if you do not have rice you put popcorn, God doesn’t care’; very careless. So where you were supposed to put in a certain substance, he would say you just put in anything; in fact turning it into myth trivialising it. So this kind of a book of grammar…
Swamiji:This is completely wrong; I think at least they should not call that as Agama or Hinduism. They can do what they want in their own name.
RM: So Swamiji here I want to mention that people who became known as Pagans from pre Christian Europe, pre Christian Africa, pre Christian Americas, Christianity conquered them and had to abuse their religion to justify conquering them. So, they had a lot processes which may resemble ours, the Vedas and Agamas in certain ways. However, the reason that they could be wiped out while we couldn’t be, one reason is they did not have shaastras.
RM: They did not have shaastras. So somebody there had discovered some process and it worked for him, so he started continuing.
Swamiji: I should say somebody came and learnt from here and went, but the source remained here.
RM: So this transfer of Shaastra didn’t happen. So therefore, these Shaastrasless Pagan civilization are very vulnerable.
RM: Not easy to revive because here we at least have somebody who can come and revive say ‘ok I found the Shaastras and I revived it’. This is one big difference between Hinduism and Paganism.
Swamiji: Our efforts should be to protect our Shaastras.
RM: Shaastras are the foundation.
Swamiji: And, in its original context, and we should not let people wrongly translate, wrongly interpret. Non practitioners should not involve in our translation and preaching. They should not steal the Adhikaratva of representing Shaastras.
RM: And Swamiji we should also, there are still some pre Christian Pagan societies that are practicing and they don’t know why they are practicing, they don’t have the Shaastras. We will teach them.
Swamiji: We will be able to easily connect them and educate them, on the original Shaastras.
RM: Some of them have approached us and want to know. They worship Goddess, but they don’t have the depth of metaphysics understanding. So we have a huge alliance possible. Because, you know if you say Islam is 2 billion, Christianity is 1.5 billion, even if all these Abrahamic religions are 4 billion that’s about half the world. So there’s the other people left. And these other people are little, little groups here and there, and they don’t have a unifying metaphysics, and Vedagama could be their metaphysics.
Swamiji: YesSurely, Vedagamas will be their unifying metaphysics.
RM: So, we can bring them, they become Hindus also. This is a huge project. But first we have to convert our Hindus into Hinduism. Then we can think big. So Swamiji, next I want to discuss, You taught us Sadashiva as the ultimate reality. Now Sadashiva manifests in many ways. Two very important ways are as a living master, living enlightened master and as Deity, both are persons, Deity is also person.
Swamiji: Being, living being.
RM: Living being, so I relate to a living Enlightened Master as Sadashiva’s form and I relate to Deity as Sadashivas form because by this relationship I can get entangled with them and through this entanglement I can also acquire more and more of the qualities and eventually hope to become the same manifestation myself. This is the science. This science is based on...
Swamiji: Actually I should say one more thing, even the fire and the representing forms are also added as the expressions of Sadashiva in Agama. Not just these two, two more also. Representing form means like the Mandala and the Linga. It does not have face and all that, it represents Sadashiva.
RM: So now one of the things that I wanted to do is differentiate the qualities of the living master, as quantum entanglement possibility for me and worship versus Deity. Now it seems that the living master offers the advantage that he looks like us, he eats like us, tells us a joke, dances with us, teaches us, you know, so it’s more user friendly, more user friendly
Swamiji: I should say giving more confidence to our bio memory that we can take this quantum jump.
RM: Where as the Deity, I do worship, I do seva, I do all the things but Deity doesn’t come back and dance with me, doesn’t talk. I mean it’s not the same relationship. It’s more one way. I am doing for the Deity but I don’t really necessarily have the Deity calling me up and saying ok change this, do that. So can we say that both are equivalent, but the living master has the advantage, that the living master is easier for us?
Swamiji: See, initially surely living master is easier, but the Deity is, for the mass you can help through deities; for a larger number of people. The individual, one master will not be able to be engaging with larger number of people. So at those times Deity is always useful.
RM: But can we also say that the Deity was once upon a time a living master.
Swamiji: Yes sure, you see when deities were living they were masters, when masters are gone they are deities.
RM: So how do we explain then the Presence, the Divine Presence in something like Ganga, which is.. is that a Deity?
Swamiji: I should say Ganga itself is not just a collection of a large quantity of water, because of its sheer quantity and the way it behaves, it develops a unique independent will and character and she becomes a Deity. So she becomes energy. She also responds to our thoughts, prayers and she relates with us. She reveals Truths, she gives boon. She is a living Deity just because of her existence and the size of her existence.
RM: Swamiji, in the Ramayana, Hanuman is also said to be Shiva avatar.
RM: So how do you explain this that Shiva Avatar enters a Vaishnava text.
Swamiji: See what I’m saying the Shiva’s energy, Shiva’s own bio energy is received by Hanumanji’s mother and then she gives birth to Hanumanji. So the bio energy is from Sadashiva himself. One thing if you see deeply, in our original text we never had this confusion of, the Sampradayas trying to fight with each other. You see, they always declared their supremacy through what they are contributing, never by putting others, never by putting others down or denying. For example, Ramachandra Prabhu, Sri Rama, after killing Kakasura, he establishes Shiva in Ramanagara and worships. After killing Ravana he establishes Shiva in Rameshwaram and worships. There are two Rameshwarams, one is Ramanagara here in Bidadi and one in Rameshwaram, near the end of South India, tip of South India, Tamil Nadu. So understand no Sampradaya tries to establish their supremacy by putting the others down. And Shiva Mahapurana says very clearly in Kashi, Sadashiva liberates people by giving them Taraka mantra of Ramanama. Shiva purana says.
RM: So it seems that the Sadashivas manifestations are so many, so complex, they also are worshipping each other.
Swamiji: Yes, I should say, there are 28 incarnations of Sadashiva, described in Kurma Purana, Durvasa, Muni, so many descriptions are there. All of them, when they were in the body, they worshipped Devi.
RM: So Sadashiva in form X worships Sadashiva in the form of Y. That’s a beautiful thing; it’s a very beautiful thing.
Swamiji:Yes, that should be the understanding.You see, whenever he manifests, even Sadashiva himself when he manifests in human frame, he sets a trend for other human beings, see he manifests only to teach to other human beings. If he is going to be in his state of non practicing then he does not even need to manifest.
RM: So, Swamiji, this is where I wanted to find out the difference between or the relation between Yajnas in the Vedas which is a real process and Agamas. Is Yajna a kind of Agama or Agama a kind of Yajna?
Swamiji:I should say, in Vedas Yajnas are performed more to connect with the deities and make them feel happy, blissful and receive boons from them. In Agamas not only deities, even the other divine beings and without even any independent, intelligent willed God, even the processes, like a spiritual alchemy process, jnana rasavada is done as Yajna. That one unique contribution is in Agamas. For example, all Agamic Homas and rituals are not always, like connecting with Ganesha, Subramanya, Sadashiva, Durga, Kali. They, they are even spiritual alchemy processes where certain objects are brought together and burnt, boiled and the result is like a nuclear missile, or a flight or a circuit which generates energy so even these objects this kind of extraordinary things are also called as Yajna in Agama, that is one difference. Here pleasing, connecting, relating with deities are also there and this other actions are also called as Yajnas in Agamas.
RM: So not only there is no conflict, but actually one leads to the other, one spectrum. That, that is... ok. For the benefit of those who did not attend the last 19-20 days, people who are viewing it, I want to say that I first came across the concept of quantum entanglement through Maharishi Mahesh Yogi’s followers about 30 years ago, as a physics student and there they talked about, physics, quantum mechanics talks about entanglement of photons, electrons, but they started talking about the conscious beings entanglement using this quantum idea and said OK we can also do this. And then they wrote about lot of physics, high flown papers and all that they produced and I was very, very impressed. So I also made it a part to my vocabulary that maybe the processes we do, and I use the word maybe because I did not what I now know having come here, but before I came here, it was hypothesis for me that maybe there is a quantum entanglement analogy something similar going on when a being is entangling or really involved with a Guru or with a Deity, or with Sadashiva, Brahman or whatever. And so it was more like a possibility that our texts talk about but I didn’t know that there is a actual procedure and protocol to make it happen. So one of the things that I have learnt here is that what was always a theoretical model for me and I’ve written so much about quantum entanglement of beings, and consciousness and I am writing actually a book also about this, but what I learnt here is things like the quantum entanglement methods include things like yoga, dancing-kirtan is not just fun going on we are entangling, celebrations, procession of deities, Guru entanglement, Deity worship, Linga abhishekam, Homas, darshan energy darshans, power manifestations, various Q&A sessions to sit and discuss, to sit and have chai and talk and various kinds of things, living in the ashram, living in the ashram, walking bare foot, getting wet and walking bare foot and saying it’s ok, is part of going back to our natural state and in that natural state we are more entangled, whereas when we are tightened up wearing boots and clothes and all that stuffy modern life we are blocking the entanglement of our own will, we are blocking that. So, a whole lot of things that we do here are actually entanglement facilitators. So this is a big new idea that I have learnt. Is this OK?
Swamiji: I should say the Shaktinipaata is the word, for quantum entanglement if I have to roughly translate, Sadashiva uses the word Shaktinipaata. And whatever you described is perfect, he goes even one step further, even taking bath in the same water in which master took bath, or the Deity has been given bath.
RM:Because that water has become entangled.
Swamiji: And sprinkling that same water on your head. So to the extreme level, Sadashiva describes this quantum entanglement, not only in the physical level, even thought currents. If I express certain thought current and you are ‘wow’, you feel ‘wow’ about it, then the entanglement has started.
RM: Andso, one is direct entanglement between conscious being and conscious being. One seems to be entanglement through matter; Mandala plays a role there... Vibhuti. When we say this food is sacred or this object is sacred, what we are saying is that it has been entangled with Sadashiva and now when I entangle with it, I have access to the same. It is sort of like, some kind of software has been linked and I’m downloading it from there. Because maybe I don’t have access to Sadashiva but I have access to this entity which has been energised. So this process is actually very scientific, because it is verifiable
Swamiji:Jnana rasavada object, the object which has gone through a spiritual Alchemy process, one end of it is matter, another end of it is Sadashiva. It’s a bridge.
RM: True very good.
Swamiji:It’s a God particle, in particle; God, in particle form. So that re produces the same experience in us.
RM: This is actually, what you just said, as I understand is the fundamental scientific principal behind everything. And this differentiates Hinduism from all other traditions, because over there, this is accused as idol worship and banned. So what we call Divinity in matter is banned because it is called idolatry. So you can never say these things are the same because they are opposite effect, and a good poison pill is for us to supply to them what is banned. Each time we hold our ground and say look this sacredness we cannot compromise. We cannot say Ganga is just an ordinary river, and this murthi is just a piece of stone and the living Master is just another teacher; we cannot do that. So as long as we hold on to these, we are not going to get digested because these are non digestible. So we have the authenticity leads to be our security as non digestible and also serves as a poison pill to anybody else.
Swamiji:And it produces results, only the authenticity produces results. See, I have also faced many people, who say ‘Why? If the rice is not there, it’s OK, God is not going to be angry with pop corn, let me throw that.’ People come and try to tell me that. I tell them, ‘understand, for example you revere a person, if that person himself wrote a manual, how he needs to be treated, will you do something on your own? No
RM: That is very true, yes; you have to respect the source. This takes me to an issue which has become controversial and I think we want to resolve it. Lot of people saying - why is Swamiji doing Siddhis. You are not supposed to do siddhis and you have explained that siddhis is different. We are doing Shaktis. So can you explain the difference between Siddhi and Shaktis.
Swamiji: Rajivji, first thing, the concept of Siddhi is from Yoga-vedanta Sampradaya, the Yoga Sampradayas. The truth of Shakti is from Agama Sampradaya; just few minutes before I was explaining the thought current entanglement. For example, if your teacher is Yoga teacher, and he says you have an individual identity, ego, that needs to be purified and you need to reach soul. If you start getting entangled with this thought current, your whole life you will be proceeding in that thought current. So on the way when the ego is manifesting higher and higher experiences that is called Siddhi. Here, the very thought current I entangle with all of you or all of you are entangled is from Sadashiva. He says very clearly, it starts with Oneness. Here, it is very clear, your, if you feel that you have a lower identity, it is only considered as a disorder but not as a existence.
RM: Very true.
Swamiji: See, the very introduction, the context with which the entanglement happens, initiation happens; for example, if you are going to be initiated, receiving Shaktinipaata from a Yoga Guru who tells you, ‘you are a ego, you need to reach the soul’ that is what will be your path. But if you are entangling, getting initiated Shaktinipaata with a Guru, “you are Sadashiva, and if anywhere it is not manifesting it is just a blind spot, let me clean it up”, that is what is going to be your reality.
RM: So in Siddhis you are getting more and more entangled with ego, in Shaktis you are getting more and more entangled with Sadashiva. So then the question as to why should we demonstrate.
Let me explain, then tell me if it is right or wrong. Some of the people have also said, ‘why do you want to go on giving demos? You are showing off’. So the way I understand it is that just like the analogy of physical strength in my body with muscles, when I go and do some work out, okay, I am exercising certain muscles. As those muscles get stronger, it has an echo effect on other muscles. Because the circulation improves, the nerves supply improves and so other muscles which I was not using also become activated and they also become better. So as more muscles get strong then it encourages even more and more. That is why an athelete who is good at one sport can pick up another sport, because his body is more like that. Similarly Shaktis, if some Shaktis manifest, it will also have an effect and help other Shaktis. And this awakening of Shaktis will bring one closer and closer to Sadashiva. So it is a spiritual process and it is not a circus.
Swamiji: It is a pure spiritual process. I can give you enough of original references, enough of original Agamas. The basic understanding I’m giving itself, the basis of the Shaktinipaata itself is Oneness, Sadashivatva, Shivoham. That is the basic understanding from where the Shaktinipaata, the entanglement starts. So in few days more and more they start getting entangled with this truth, the more and more powers manifest. When they manifest the powers they get more and more entangled with the original truth. Actually powers are side-effects of the entanglement with the original truth.
RM: They are just sort of natural.
Swamiji:Natural expression... and I should also say, why then we do demos and we show it off to people, I should say showing it off is not right word. When we express, manifest, we inspire the people who are seeing, to come back to this original Shivoham space which they are also carrying.
RM:And one of the things, people who are watching should know, is that one of the ways that Swamiji has wanted to entangle, actually Swamiji has come up with so many ways to help us get entangled with Sadashiva, one of them is with those young kids here who are manifesting powers as we entangle with them we also manifest ourselves. So, this manifestation also triggers echo effect. Mirror effect.
Swamiji:When you see somebody swimming, your bio-memory gets the confidence you can also swim.
RM:Certain parts of the brain get activated for the swimming process.
Swamiji:That neuron, mirroring neuron effect starts happening. Same way when you see power manifestation going on and first you start doubting and when the doubts are cleared and you become so sure, ‘ohh God!’ That moment even your ... the mirror neuron effects, mirroring neuron effect happens in you. Even you get entangled with the Sadashiva space of the person who is manifesting the powers.
RM: So for people who are not familiar with manifestation of powers – First we’ve discussed this is not siddhis. I just want to summarise. Second there is a benefit in manifesting these powers to the person who is doing it, because as he manifests more and more he can get familiar with even more Shaktis.
Swamiji:And he gets more and more entangled with the Oneness, Shivoham space, Sadashivoham space’
RM: So ultimately he is getting closer and closer to Sadashiva himself. The effect on the audience is to a) inspire them, encourage them to go check it out. So you should come here and check it out for yourself. And also besides the intellectual checking out and emotional checking out there is also the entanglement effect.
Swamiji: Spiritual entanglement
RM: Spiritual entanglement effect with the person who is doing this kind of performance. So therefore, it is a good idea to teach more and more people and I just want people to know that right now Swamiji has a Gurukulam with a hundred young people who are manifesting these powers,
Swamiji: more than a hundred.
RM: more than a hundred; they are going around doing these manifestations and we are planning with Janardhan and us, the foundation, we are planning the next year we will have a group who will go to major places. Three audiences target, one is people who follow those like me, Hindus but very unsure of this, cynical about it, we want them to come and check it out, participate, talk to these young people and watch and see, make sure for themselves. Second is scientists and I’m talking to the ministry of science and technology to encourage them to do this sort of things. The third is the VIPs, the people who are in power, the powerful people who need to see this for themselves. We have had a few people visit here also and after visiting here, watching all this for themselves, they go back very transformed and they are never going to be thinking of anything but respect for Swamiji and what he is doing which is what we want to achieve.
Swamiji: And basically, Rajeevji, I’m very sincere, integrated to the words of Sadashiva. That is the reason I made the whole Gurukul completely free. In six places Sadashiva says the Gurukul should be free. So, I made it free. Now it is open. Anybody below 21 can come and reside. It’s our responsibility to give you food, stay, clothes, medical care, all the basic needs and the education and make you manifest these powers.
RM: And a few days ago, few days ago we had a visit from some important people in Delhi, who were so impressed. They are running some big school with 2000 people who requested Swamiji please take our students and teach them all this stuff. And Swamiji said you can send them here and we can teach anybody. So your offer is...
Swamiji: It is completely free.
RM: It is free and people from any ashram, any temple, any organisation...
Swamiji: Any non... see, what I’m saying, any kid between 7-14 as per Agama only after seven a child can be accepted into the Gurukul. 7 to 21 we are free residential international standard Gurukul. And anybody wants to come and learn, we do have a ten day program and 21 days programmes, we will offer for all non profit institutions freely.
Swamiji: All, naturally, who else will come.
RM: No one else will come
Swamiji: Anybody else comes, if they accept and understand and revere and respect Hinduism, I’m open.
RM: then they become Hindus.
Swamiji: I’m open.
RM: So your goal is to expand this from the current capacity to thousands of people.
Swamiji: Yes and even this Gurukul will be expanded to at least ten thousand in the next few years, two years. Yes, two years is the goal I have. It will become ten thousand kids Gurukul in next two years.
RM: This is a very important goal for everybody to support. So, ten thousand young people can be trained to be leaders of society. So, you’d also mentioned that some of these people who can do diagnostics and who can look at body scans, you would want them to go and get medical degrees. Regular MDs, MBBS, they can be practicing medicine with also special powers.
Swamiji: With special powers and authenticating... I’m trying to bring spiritual legitimacy to the Sanatana Hindu Dharma. See, ultimately, this is the one statement I want to make – Sanatana Hindu Dharma is real.
RM: That is what everything is about.
Swamiji: That is all I am trying to say. And surely if I train more and more people with manifesting powers who are also into the various fields of life like politics, society, engineers, doctors, lawyers, judges, decision makers, naturally, they will bring legitimacy to this whole science.
RM: And Swamiji, one of the most important, powerful professions which is furthest away from the truth and spirituality and therefore they need it the most are these journalists and media people. They really are... they messed it up quite badly. So, so, now I want to discuss futurist possibilities, because I think we’ve established a foundation of what is Agama, how scientific it is and what all projects are going on here and why they are important.
When you do long distance darshan, I want to understand this because scientists will want to know. On one side is the camera, on the other side is a screen, so this person is not seeing you but your image and he is not having consciousness, he is not in your breathing space but he is seeing your image, so I want to understand to what extent the entanglement can travel in that way.
Swamiji: Actually, only first few seconds you will feel you are seeing my image not me. The system is such in few seconds you will not remember it is my image you will know it’s me. The moment that understanding takes over, it is no more a distance. See actually, that understanding happens maybe in few minutes, that few minutes only they are seeing my image.
RM: So Swamiji,
Swamiji: The moment the image is moving the hand they just know it’s happening and in few minutes they forget they are in their home, they just feel they are in my presence I am there.
RM: So Swamiji, there is a difference between say a Deity made of stone and the same Deity image presented on the screen because in the case of the Deity made of stone, the molecules are stable and we do Prana Pratishtha of those molecules. In the case of an image, the screen itself does not have the image, the image is just light bulbs that go on and off, so whether the light bulbs how on/off the light bulbs are determines whether it is a football game or whether it is Guru talking. So in fact, you can’t do Prana Pratishta on a screen image because after watching your image we turn it off and watch a football game, watch the news, watch whatever, so the image on that matter has changed. It is like somebody making a wax Deity, then he does Prana Pratishta, then he melts the wax and makes the wax of some movie star or a cricket player, and then he next day makes a wax again of Shiva. He cannot say that this is the same murthi because the Prana Pratishta has been destroyed.
Swamiji:What I am saying, here the entanglement happens more between the persons core consciousness and me. The moment he decides he is seeing me that is enough even if he does not see me, his decision is powerful enough for me to entangle with that person.
RM:So can we say that inside the person is already the software of Sadashiva but it has not been opened with a password. So it has er... it exists and when he sees the manifestation, whether it is through image, TV, whatever, something wakes up, triggers opening it and once it is opened..
Swamiji: Then the Shaktinipaata starts.
RM: Then it means that the Shaktinipaata is not limited to the physics of time and space.
Swamiji:Surely, surely Shaktini path is not limited to the physics of time-space. Even the two-way video conferencing screen is just to trigger; that first few minutes they need to be triggered. That software need to be open up; just for that only that two way video conferencing screen. After that few minutes you may not even need that screen; the entanglement has started happening.
RM: So the entanglement and the transmission of Shakti and the whole spiritual science is not subordinate to the physics.
RM: It’s the other way round because it translates.
Swamiji: Surely much beyond physics; still physics is not able to catch up with us. They need to take a lot of time.
RM: So this is important insight for me. So, when people want to ask can a machine transmit shakti because you are transmitting, it goes not only from the camera to the screen but in between the internet goes through many countries and there are these internet centres where there are human beings and their thoughts are being entangled, entangled, they maybe polluting, contaminating along the way. So, how is it possible when somebody’s transmission it begins here, it ends there, it goes through so many pollutants and
Swamiji: I should say, maybe that persons eyes, till that few minutes that entanglement starts only all these machines are required, moment connection happens all these are not required it is direct, from space to space.
RM: So one principle of physics we brought in is entanglement, another physics principle is something called space-time-tunnelling, action at a distance which physics is not discovering with matter. Also that there are certain cause effects, that seem to violate the limits of space-time, but it is still very rudimentary and our science is way ahead of that.
Swamiji: Way ahead I tell you. This whole physics is the length level physics; Agama is breadth and depth level physics.
RM: That’s a profound concept we learnt and for those of you who are not here I have to apologise you have to come here and learn it. You can’t learn it in two minutes. The different, the eleven dimensions that Swamiji taught us about, these eleven dimensions...
Swamiji: It is from the Agama.
RM: It is from the Agama. And before that we learnt the 25 states of consciousness. So all of these are high flown science and people should come and signup and spend the time and that is the only way they can learn. So it means that the entanglement from human to machine and at the other end machine to human, it is just a suggestion, but really it is human to human. The machine is just a facilitator, kind of a auto suggestion.
Swamiji: For example, for the person to believe that he is connecting. Machine is a placebo. Person to person is the real.
RM: This is very important, machine is a placebo to trigger; the password goes in it activates the whole thing, but it was always sitting there. So when the person wakes up he also says ‘oh this is always there I didn’t know it’.
Swamiji: Machine is only a password not the software. Person to person is the software.
RM: Is the actual entanglement. So Swamiji, how is it that there are places where they say there was a very, very enlightened being, he’s gone but this is his Samadhi and the effect is still there. So, how does it out last the life of the person in the body?
Swamiji: The bio memory and the muscle memory we have, for example, for hundred years these muscles were continuously the channel for the higher consciousness and energy, this bio memory for hundred years functioned out of deep love and compassion and sharing. Even after the bio energy stops using this muscle memory and bio memory, the quality of the muscle memory and bio memory does not get destroyed. So that continues to stay in that space and when a disciple is initiated with the bio energy of the Master when he is in the body, his bio energy gives life to this bio memory and muscle memory which is just sitting in Samadhi. So when he comes, he gets the same effect which he got when the master was alive.
RM: very interesting. So, Swamiji this science is so deep, complex, profound and provable; this is why I don’t like this term , genetic new age term that people are using of ‘I am spiritual but not religious.’ They are spiritual but not religious but they don’t have grounding in the science; they don’t have the scientific....
Swamiji: See, what I am saying, ‘I’m spiritual, not religious’ - the statement can be made if you are not a Hindu. If you are a Hindu the statement does not make sense, because in Hinduism, every religious is spiritual. So I wanted to make this statement very clearly there is no cultural frills in Hinduism. I throw open challenge. Anybody can come; I’m ready for a debate. Tell me show me something as a cultural frill in Hinduism, I will prove there is no cultural frill in Hinduism. Everything is a spiritual culture.
RM: Very true.
Swamiji: It is a spiritual culture. If you don’t know why the culture is, why the culturing is done, the context, at least move out, step aside with a polite respect. Do not hurt us by using the word ‘cultural frill’ on us.
RM: This is very true, because you know what is happening is, some people enter a space which is not genuine Hinduism because they do not accept these scientific principles, but the talk is such that it looks like it must be saying the same thing and this deceives and misleads a lot of people because they are doing very sophisticated marketing. They are doing very sophisticated marketing in the name of spirituality and so on, but it is not Agama rooted, it is not rooted on Shaastras and therefore, it is more sort of politically correct spirituality kind of thing. And there is a big fashion of that kind.
Swamiji: Political correctness does not make them authentic or Adhikaratva. That is why I insist to everyone, whether you go to an astrologer, gemmologist, the numerologist, vaastu consultant, yoga Guru, or even a temple, find out before is the Shaastra Pramana backing it.
RM: that is true.
Swamiji: Do not go and worship any God, Deity anything which has no reference in Agamas.
RM: So Swamiji here my conjecture is that a lot of new modern temples are being built which are not on Agamas. I know that in my neighbourhood they just build some temple somewhere, some guys they bought a church and just turned it into something with some minor cosmetics.
Swamiji: Those, those should be called as worship centres not temples. See, in Hindu tradition, temple can be used as an education centre, worship altar, social gathering place, all that, but the important thing is that it is a place where God resides, lives. That is why it cannot be demolished, it cannot be changed. You can’t shift a Hindu temple.
RM: Yeah! A mosque is not a place where there is divinity; they don’t want you to worship a mosque. It’s a place where people get together and point at the Kaaba. There is no spirituality possible in matter in Islam.
Swamiji: In Hindu tradition, in Agama it is very, very clear God resides in the temple.
RM: So Swamiji, this means that....
Swamiji: Temple cannot be demolished, cannot be relocated, cannot be bulldozed; once installed it is installed.
RM: So Swamiji, the Deity being a person, divine person when I give donation or contribution or some kind of a thing to the Deity.
Swamiji: That is owned by Deity.
RM: So Deity should be respected by law
Swamiji: As a Being
RM: As somebody who has assets, so the land belonging to the Deity they cannot sell it off.
Swamiji: Yes! They cannot touch.
RM: They cannot touch. So this is a major problem in this secular government, because large amount of temple lands where people gave to the Deity, the old kings, whatever they gave these lands to the Deity, the secular government in the interest of separating all this stuff and controlling temples, they’ve been selling off temple lands.
Swamiji: That is not right!
RM: That is actually should be considered illegal.
Swamiji: Yes! You see either they should respect the concept and the context with which temples are built and donations are given; they should respect that whole context and operate, because that should be the operating methodology.
RM: So Swamiji even if someone is
Swamiji: For example: when this Deity was installed what is the context and based on that context only I gave donation; so this two should be legitimately respected and revered.
RM: Yes! So Swamiji even those who in the law, they have a concept of a trust, so nothing to even do with spirituality. If somebody says I made a trust for some purpose, all the money given to the trust, the law respects belongs to the trust. It cannot be taken away; even though it may not be considered a person but it is an entity. So at least from that point of view, all the wealth given over thousands of years to deities, the deities at least the trust, at least it is an entity to which people have given the money, it is no right of some government or some other local people to take it away and sell it off. So this should be actually prosecuted in the Supreme court, as a very fundamental violation of Hinduism; a very fundamental violation.
Swamiji: Yes! Yes!
RM: My next question Swamiji has to do with futurist body, because for five thousand years Hindu body has been the same, I mean the human body, since beginning of time as we remember it. We have two eyes, we have two whatever, our physical metabolism is same. Agamas are based on human body, because it says right hand, it does not expect me to have four hands, and the kind of food, it knows my metabolism. For the first time, science is now able to tamper and intervene with bodies - like we make genetically modified food, so there is a tomato which has – lasts longer and grows better and looks nice but it has got one gene from a pig added so it becomes resistant. So we are actually, science is actually coming up with hybrid creatures where one jeeva and another jeeva are mixed up to make a new kind of jeeva, which was not there in nature. With stem cells, people might be able to... scientists might be able to help somebody grow a new organ. Your liver is destroyed, you grow a new liver; and organ transplant I want to discuss also. I knew one person, she had three kidneys! They transplanted the extra one because one of the others was damaged. The liver got destroyed so they put in a new liver. So we have two kinds of interventions, one is – somebody’s organ is transplanted and I want to know whether the bio memory or the muscle memory of that person has come in. That is one question.
Second question is – with stem cell now we are able to grow more organs which raises some issues also. What happens if somebody’s organ is destroyed and he grows a new organ and then they are talking about human beings who may be organ farms? They may go to a poor country and say ‘ok now you just keep growing new kidneys and we harvest them for sale’, and you get some money, it’s not costing you anything and so you just become like a tree grows mangoes, you grow kidneys or somebody grows eyes or whatever. This raises lot of ethics issues also and scientific issues. What happens to such people? What do you feel about this, this kind of intervention of science in the structure of the human body?
Swamiji: For this whole, I should look at it from the context of, what Sadashiva says. See when he declares, ‘let me become many to celebrate myself’. That is the basic context with which the Universe expands. That is the basic context of Sadashiva. So the basic law, the first principle, foremost commandant of Sadashiva is co existence; co existence with love, with life, with joy, with compassion, with sharing. Based on that law of co existence, non violence, anything done, I should say it is approved by Sadashiva. Wherever that gets disturbed, then we should go all out to stop it. So I can only come back to the original principle, first principle, for solution. How it is adopted, knowing that we can make the individual decisions more strategic decisions. But the basic strategy should be - lets co exist. Let our co existence be joyful and blissful. If somebody is ready to grow the organ, out of love, compassion and the spirit of co existence, I may welcome. I may not even say something is wrong.
RM: But it could lead to exploitation, some poor people might be used.
Swamiji: So that exploitation part, need to be managed. That is where we need to bring our awareness, legal enforcement, all that. So it’s a point where we need to see the situation and develop a strategy.
RM: And I think Swamiji in the next generation, next 20-25 years we will need spiritual masters who are able to pass judgement on each case, because there is no general rule.
Swamiji: Yes. We can’t make a general rule; case by case, studying and passing the exact precise truth and context as per Sadashiva.
RM: And Swamiji, the laws in many of these countries are now open to religious input. So the sad thing is there is no Hindu input as assertive. Christians have set up all these think tanks, Jews have to figure out what the policy should be from their point of view...
Swamiji: It is time for us to do the draft.
RM: We have to do a policy because this is happening very fast. So for instance, what happens if somebody says I’ll grow an extra organ and put it on amazon for sale and you can buy it and down load and we’ll sell it to you, or whatever. So the argument is that if the seller wants to sell, the buyer needs the organ why are you interfering. So there is this kind of a thing going on. Does organ have rights and is there such a thing as artificial organ that somebody has grown which is sold like potatoes and mangoes, or is there something wrong about growing this in the first place and what about the transfer of Karmic imprint in an organ that, let’s say somebody takes over my kidney because I am dead and I sign off and then it goes to somebody. On one hand it helps someone live; that’s good. On the other hand they are taking over my Karmic, without knowing it.
Swamiji: What I am saying ... When it comes to giving life the small karmic thing is ok to be tolerated. So even from my view I will bring only non violence and co existence as the only principle to measure and judge in any of these situations other than anything else.
RM: So Swamiji, another question comes, let’s say they are able to implant something in the eye and give you vision which is telescopic, microscopic, night vision. You know they can implant lens nowadays, so they can implant electronic lens maybe with wireless connection and you can watch CNN without even turning on the TV; it may happen, just put some lenses. So, when these things happen we may become like super human because there maybe people whose muscles can run very fast and they don’t need to, you know there may be all kind of things happening. There may be a different source of energy inside the body planted that will last you for hundred years and keeps giving you some, some energy. So these bionic human beings, is there an ethics for them, against them? Is this part of human evolution? Or is it some kind of a tampering that we should worry about?
Swamiji: I should say, as long as they do not limit or stop, interfere in the conscious evolution of births and deaths and completion and liberation, all these are welcome. But if they are trying to interfere in the completion and liberation, the highest truth of Moksha, then this should not be part of our life.
RM: A misuse would be where somebody is able to control the person’s thoughts; he has planted some chip and now he can control their thoughts.
Swamiji: Those things are dangerous.
RM: ISIS can create an army. They can just kidnap some young kids and manipulate, brainwash them.
Swamiji: So, those dangers should be attended very carefully.
RM: So this will increase the need for spiritually spiritual Adhikaris, to be sitting there like a judge almost, saying this one good, this one not good because average person cannot be given all the rules of Agama. The person has to take every case.
Swamiji: And you see, it’s like Agamas constitution structure exists. So every situation need to be taken, from that constitution structure it has to be handled.
RM: So now, one of the things I wanted to ask is about collective evolution. Sri Aurobindo, his signature idea was that while everybody is talking about Moksha, stopping there, why stop there? He felt that those who achieved a certain state as per conventional idea of Advait Vedanta, they need to have an evolution of beyond that, and he predicted that there’ll be a collective evolution of humanity, so a critical mass of human beings will evolve to a super conscious state. They’ll become... their bodies will change, their brains will change and then this will become like a species looking at humans the way humans look at monkeys. In other words they will have some powers, such powers that we ordinary human beings will look like another species, so what do you think of that?
Swamiji: What he says is right. Only thing I wanted to tell, Moksh is not withdrawal as the neo Vedantis describe. Actually, Pratyahara is withdrawal that is only a technique for some limited time. When the real living enlightenment happens and Sadashivatva happens, it only manifests. It is not withdrawal, so what Aurobindo says I accept and agree 100%. Maybe all the things I’m doing, making, helping people manifest so many powers and states and experience of Sadashivatva, all these are also are the effort in evolving more and more, higher and higher conscious evolved new species, called Sadashivas.
RM: So what about, what about the use of the bio technology to accelerate that? Is that good or not?
Swamiji: I should say, as long as they are not violent and as long as they do not interfere.... see, when you when you teach certain truths to the person, he develops very subtle grooves in the brain to experience that. This bio interference should not be disturbing those grooves and those sensitive conscious awakenings. Then I am ok with it. As long as they do not teach violence, they do not interfere with this conscious evolution, I will be very happy with it. Because just like using the spectacles and using this mike, this no way stops us being more Agamic or being more Sadashivatva. So, because they don’t stop I am ready to use. Anything which does not stop manifesting Sadashivatva, I’m ready to accept, I call them modernisation. But I’m not interested in anything which stops it to allow as part. You see, for example, I’m ready to have this microphone. I’m ready to have that camera. All this does not stop my Sadashivatva. But, I’m not interested in Mc Donalds. I’m not interested in Pizza Hut because that is stopping my Sadashivatva. That food is not letting me to develop my higher conscious energy. So, whatever is not interfering I welcome.
RM: So, one of the cases, example, I want to bring to you for your evaluation because it is happening a lot and non Hindu religious leaders have given a lot of opinions in the courts in US, but no Hindu has really come back, come forth, is this situation where, you know people are now living longer and longer, but they are not necessarily happier and happier. And some of them end up like vegetables. So at what stage should it be allowed, that the person should say ‘I’m terminally ill, they’ve given me so many weeks to live. I am in intense pain; I would like to put myself to death.’ Not suicide in the normal sense, but somebody who is... now there is this law coming and they are debating this from a religious point of view with no Hindu input. The law says that if the person has been certified by so many different doctors that he is ill, terminally ill, he’s got intense pain, there is zero chance of him living, and he himself says rather that going through pain and death, I just want to go to death. The alternative is that we just keep him like a zombie until he dies, but it’s not a happy life. We just keep him alive just to be compliant with the law. So, sometimes the family also feels that this is his wish, he also puts it, there is something called your living will and all that, you can put all this stuff and say under these circumstances you can put me to death. So, what is the Hindu view on a person reaching a state where he wants to voluntarily die? Just to save pain.
Swamiji: I should say, at least six-seven references, I was also thinking and analysing and collecting references from the scriptures. At least six-seven references supports only extension of life. There are two reference I can say, very clearly says all the new knowledge we acquire also should be directed towards the extension of life. So this makes it very clear without any ambiguity without any dilemma that we should be supporting life. How we apply, now we will have to bring it from situation to situation and pass the detailed understanding. Basically, if you ask me the first opinion, from all my research and my understanding, I will only say, let us evolve a system, all our best available knowledge, resources, everything is put to support life.
RM: But what if it is at the cost of pain? The guy is alive but he will be in pain; he won’t be walking, he won’t be happy, a miserable life. So, he says I’m better off dead.
Swamiji:If we can do something to help the person to even be out of pain, if we can put some resources and energy and understanding in that line, that’ll be more, that is what will be my view as of now, at least.
RM: That is correct.So Swamiji my next point is a very big provocation and challenge to neuro scientists. I’m making this to neuro scientists. And I want your thoughts on this. I believe, that using the evidence of modern science without any spirituality being brought in, I can prove that Rishis existed, which is a very daunting claim because this is a spiritual claim, but I’m not using a spiritual reference and here is my proof and I want the neuro scientists to give me an answer if they want to. Neuro scientists have concluded that more than 95% of our brain we don’t use; this is neuro science. That we are using only small per cent of the brain, the rest of it is dark. But under yogic meditation, higher states of consciousness, those people are able to light up more and more part of the brain. The more advanced their consciousness, the more part of that 95% gets woken up; this they are able to do. They have not connected it, they have not connected the dots to say, that the other 95% must have been used at one point for it to exist because evolutionary biology says that if this creature was in the water and then it is in the water but it has arms and legs to walk on land, once upon a time it did walk on land. And if this creature is not able to fly but has wings, at one time it was flying because evolutionary biology with no reference to spirituality, says that beings create functionality to survive and to live. They develop what they need; nothing develops which is not needed.
So, using their own logic, there must have been beings who used the other 95% at one time. Otherwise, it could not have existed and there was 95% gets woken, higher states of consciousness, so such beings existed and we just call them Rishis. So, this is the proof I offer to the neuro scientists that Rishis did exist. So, for this I coin the term ‘archaeology of the brain’. The archaeologist digs up under the ground and he finds something, and he dates it and then he says people did exist who used it. So, if they find some very advanced city, then they’ll say that there must have been people who used it. Otherwise, it could not have existed. So if we consider this 95% unused brain today as a discovery called the archaeology of the brain and we apply the same logic as archaeologists apply, then it would be impossible for them to deny that such Rishis have existed.
But the strange thing is, if they were to accept this logic, they validate Hinduism and they invalidate the whole chronology of history which the west has been based on. From you know this Adam Eve and this fall and all that and how things are only getting better and better, this one directional advancement, no possibility that things were very much better at one time and they declined. So this Hindu idea gets legitimised if you take their own discoveries and claims and interpret them going backward. Whereas what the neuro scientists want to do with this discovery is present it as a future possibility, but this must have existed at one time. So what is your thought on this?
Swamiji: One thing, in this line, already I started working and I’m also successful with few cases. Like if somebody is from Bharadwaj Gotra, awakening that whole Bharadwajas revelations in their brain and making them recite, without they individually studying. Like a kid from the Bharadwaja gothra can recite the whole revelations of Bharadwaja without physically studying ever in his life.
RM: So some memory exists.
Swamiji: So, this will establish the authenticity of what you’re claiming. Maybe I will have to bring more and more specimens and present it to the world, which we are already successful in few, which we will be bringing more. Once we bring more, then I can very strongly, clearly, declare what you are saying is true.
RM: Because this will be a revolution, revolution backed by neuro science.
Swamiji:And I’m telling you. From my experience as Atma Pramana, I know it is true. I just need few more specimens and evidences to put it as Sakshi Pramana for people.
RM: So Swamiji, every
Swamiji: See, last two years, whatever I was claiming as my Atma Pramana, only it took few more months for me to put it as Sakshi Pramana in front of people; whether it is third eye, then remote vision, every power manifestation. Now with the same integrity I’m claiming in next few months I will put specimens to do this job.
Swamiji: To prove this truth.
RM: This is amazing. I know you will do it. I know that this will happen; because this is a big thing, a big thing for us. So Swamiji I want to talk a little bit about ideas, questions people have of Karma reincarnation. So, most religions have what they call a theory called ‘Suffering’.
So, in Judaism - God gave them commandments, they disobeyed, so they are suffering. So they went into slavery and all kind of things happened because God chose them as special people and gave them commands but they disobeyed, they suffered. So, this is the theory of suffering.
In Christianity - Adam and Eve did some original sin and then everybody is suffering, all their progeny were condemned to forever. And then Jesus Christ came and said ‘ok I will suffer on your behalf. So as long as you believe in me you will not suffer.’ So the reason there is suffering is because people have not accepted Jesus. So if everybody accepted Jesus, suffering will end. So this is their theory of suffering.
So like that Muslims have their theory of suffering - you suffer here and you get reward later with 72 virgins or whatever.
So what is the Hindu, now... now Buddhists have a theory of suffering that you are suffering, dukha, they called that dukha. You have dukha because of grasping, because you are attached, because you know the things that don’t exist, non existing things you think they exist, you objectify them and that causes your suffering.
So, in the case of Hinduism, if somebody said that suffering is because of past karma, then the question comes, why would animals suffer if they don’t have karma, why would there be a... we can say ok there’s a tsunami that killed thousands of people because maybe all those thousand because of past karma it was the right thing and tsunami is the method, it’s just a means to kill them or a plane crash kills two hundred people because all of them death was owed to them, the palla was owed to them. But why is there suffering among non humans who we don’t think have committed karma.
Swamiji: Let me define karma as per Agama, Sadashiva’s book. Forgetting the context of why we chose what we chose is suffering. ‘I am Sadashiva; let me become many to celebrate me’ – the moment I forget this after I become many, instead of celebrating, I bring suffering. Anybody who gets back to this original principle, are liberated. Who misses this principle, they, because they do not know the context, they do not know the context why they attracted this person in their life, why they manifested this situation in their life. The moment they know, if they feel bad with that person they will know at least how to get rid. If they feel good with that person, they know how to keep him. If they... see the knowledge immediately liberates. We have voted for our life as it is occurring for us. If we forget why we voted for this, that forgetfulness makes us think in a limited wrong way.
For example, I only would have decided we will have this interview. When I decided, I maybe having the clarity – this will be me becoming many and celebrating me, but now if I forget that context, then this can be, ‘oh am I, am I, did I, am I doing right, things are going right?’ So all this, all this creeps in, only if I forget the context with which I decided this. Forgetting the context is the source of suffering; not attachment or not anything else, forgetting the context why you voted for what you voted. And I might have voted for this interview for certain purpose, and the other 2-3 side effects might have been a blind spot for me. Even if I know the context why I voted, I will have the enough capacity and energy not to be hurt by the blind spot. Reaction and responses
RM: This applies to human beings
RM: What about animals
Swamiji: See, now what I’m saying, even in animals, we can’t say they have not done something bad. Their bad and their suffering bad is not in their will. For example, tiger eats deer, it is its life; he can’t eat grass. So he is forced to do bad and he is forced to suffer the bad, because he does not have a will in both, it is not suffering. Suffering can be called as suffering if you are having the freedom in generation of the karma and the experience of the karma.
RM: So if a snake swallows a small mouse, it’s a very painful death for the mouse which is going to be swallowed alive and nature is full of natural violence. There is a volcano and million things die.
Swamiji:And same way the snake is going to be killed by some other animal, so I should say, neither the snake swallowing the frog, nor some other animal swallowing the snake, has any freedom for the snake. So we should call the karma of the human beings different word, karma of the animals different word. We should classify this very clearly. Karma where the individual will has a role. Karma where the individual will does not have a role. It is only a clear programmed instinct. The programmed instinct based action, bringing programmed instinct based result, cannot be interpreted with the individual wills action, and individual wills results cycle. We are looking at that space from this space. In this space we do have karma, pain, suffering, everything because our will is a partner. There the will is not the partner.
The three plane –
Where will is the partner, suffering happens, what we call it as suffering, happens, generated, happens, generated.
Same way, will is a partner where good and bad are generated, enjoyed generated.
There is another one space where only good things happen. There also there is no will, only good thing is generated as a programmed instinct - in devaloka.
RM: So Swamiji, if somebody is ill because of his past karma, he’s fallen ill, or he’s got something wrong happening to his life, he is very unhappy and you intervene and you solve the problem. Are you hacking the karma system?
Swamiji:I should say, whenever somebody is liberated, the grey area is his freedom. For example, let me be very straight. A lawyer who masters the law of the land knows the grey area, now the grey area is his freedom.
RM: So he is using the system, he is within the system.
Swamiji:Same way when you master the karmic law, the grey area becomes your freedom.
RM: What you are saying is that what people think of as miracles, you are doing within the system, using capabilities and features which ordinary people don’t know
Swamiji:Yes. And my only ethics is I should always support life. As long as I support life, that grey area freedom is expanded for me.
RM: So actually within the karma system, more latitude available to the better lawyer
Swamiji:Yes, better lawyer.
RM: The better lawyer says yes I know this clause.
Swamiji:See the better lawyer means, in the karma system, the better lawyer means man who always votes for life; who always votes for life, who is always keen and passionate about larger number of lives, larger good of the humanity.
RM:So better physicist knows more physics and he can come up with a invention which the rest of us cannot come up with.
Swamiji:So all my healing, all my miracles are playing in the grey area; playing in the grey area freedom.
RM: So actually this is also within causation, because if I do this you can heal, and you are teaching others to heal; which is also very interesting thing that you actually teach others to do all the things you do, whereas traditionally you hear of people who can do a miracle, but cannot teach it or even explain it.
Swamiji:I should say, I got it very systematically from my Gurus. My only responsibility is, to make them all alive, that they are not dead when I am gone. When I am gone, I don’t want all this to be gone along with me. Whatever I am doing, I neither have a marketing strategy, nor have a missionary zeal. All I have is my tremendous gratitude and integrity to my Guru Parampara, my Guru Sampradaya. What they did to me, I know, they have done something amazing to me and I am here to reproduce that on whoever is willing.
RM: And people then have to continue it further.
Swamiji:That’s all; that’s all is the only zeal I have – My gratitude and integrity to my Gurus.
RM: So Swamiji, some Tibetan Buddhist Rinpoches, when I interviewed them and asked, when Dalai Lama dies, he leaves the body he is reincarnated, you have a system to find out where he is born and they will knock at the door and say this young boy is Dalai Lama, and then he becomes the next Dalai Lama. So this is how the system works, not only for Dalai Lama, but also for other senior Lamas. So I asked them how is the technology possible and they said, they don’t use this term entanglement, but there is some kind of a meditative entanglement of a group of people who are around the Dalai Lama. So before he dies they get entangled with him and he is able to transmit to them, where he is going to be born and then they go find him. Is there something like that possible within Hinduism?
Swamiji:Agama elaborately describes this system. And one thing I want to tell, I worked with this system and I am hundred percent found to be true.
RM: So we can find a person in his next life.
Swamiji: Yes, that is one. Second, this whole system need to be revived in Hindu tradition also, which I am going to be doing.
RM: I will now propose a very provocative business strategy. We can do business, like a smart lawyer can do smart lawyering, we can do business smart. This is a proposal, which according to Agama once you revived this particular technique, should be available only to the Agama people and it will create so much wealth, and the proposal is as follows. Some of you who are into venture capital and investment banking and so on, this will make you the richest man in the world; what I am now going to tell you. If you go to Bill Gates, his biggest problem you tell him is that when you are dead your wealth is useless for you in the next life; unless we can find you and transfer that wealth. So the proposal is we go to Bill Gates and say you got a hundred billion, and you are giving philanthropy, this, that, because charity will get you to heaven what not; that is your tradition. Out of the 100 billion you give 50 billion to us in Trust to be given to you in your next life when we find you; because it is possible you may be born very poor. Bill Gates may be born very poor and Warren Buffet may be born in some African village as a very poor guy; because you know the Karma people, the people in the sky, who are the admin for Karma might say ok you had one good life now you have to be poor also. So if we can within the rules of the Agama, locate where Bill Gates is next time and give him at least five, ten billion, he will be much happier So to do that we form a Trust Management Company. Normally Trust is formed to transfer your wealth to your biological off spring and all that and these banks take a lot of commission and they pass it on to your kids and whatnot. This will be the world’s first ‘Inter-life Reincarnation Trust Management’
Swamiji: I think if we do little more research and establish the authority it is possible, sure.
RM: So, right now 40 trillion dollars is owned by the world’s richest 1% people; 40 trillion dollars. Which means when they a dead it is gone, kaput. They don’t know if their kids are any good, not good, some of it is taken by government here, there, whatever. So if we could get 1 trillion dollar out of this 40, put into our trusteeship, where we will form these Agama groups, we will take the Gurukul kids and teach them as another manifestation to, Warren Buffet will get ten people meditating around him, to keep track, entanglement his being. And then....
Swamiji: Actually, Agama even gives the methodology to bring back where you want. We can be clearly guiding and bring back wherever we want.
RM: So there will be two levels of fee structure, one fee structure we take 25% of what he has put in trust is our fee and what we do is, we got a GPS on his Jeeva atma and these kids from the Gurukul will be entangled with Warren Buffet, another ten will be with Bill Gates, like that with all these people. And another may be we will need fifty for Mukesh Ambani because he needs more help you know, more help. So each of this group will follow the Jeevatma GPS and where he is born, they go there and give him this money and say we are authorised, we have qualified and this is how it works and 25% is ours. If the guy wants to be born in a particular place of his choice then the fee is 50%. Yeah, so this way we become the richest community, the Hindus with Agama become the richest technology. And rather than anybody supporting us, we will be actually the people supporting the whole world; richest people. This could be happening. So maybe, maybe it’ll take five years, ten years. This is the world’s most powerful full R&D centre. I feel that Swamiji is the most powerful cutting edge research R&D person. Yeah! So I just want to....
Swamiji: Actually, when we work in that level this money does not make big sense. It should be more, I feel, even now the way I am working, I am looking at things of more and more people participating.
RM: So we can have a way that we bring more people into this in the next life. There are different applications maybe, for those who want money, for those who want whatever, we can provide different applications.
So now what I wanted to say is also that much of what we’ve talked about, in Christianity this is considered to be very satanic, we are satanic people according to much of Christianity, because even according to them in the book of revelation Satan will send people to delude everybody and claim they can heal, claim they have all this scientific things, but don’t believe it because it is satanic. So the Christians are very... this is one reason why Hindu Gurus are persecuted because they are reminded of that which was banned by Christianity. Hindu Gurus have a lot of symbols; you know even the Trishul, I don’t know if you know this, Trishul is the symbol of the devil.
RM: Trident is the symbol of the devil in Christianity. So lot of...
Swamiji: And the tail.
RM: The tail and all that and this snake very violent whatever kind of thing. So our symbolism and our procedures and processes face this prosecution and we have to be very confident and strong that this is going to happen but it should not bother you. You should able to give a good answer back. And this takes me to another point and that is, one of the books I’m writing, is the study of major Gurus – what happened to them. So I have looked at Maharishi, Osho, Vivekanand, Aurobindo, Muktanand, Laxman Joo, Prabhupad, Paramahamsa Yogananda and many others. And it seems that, somewhere along the way either during their life they got hit, attacked quite a lot or their followers betrayed them. And so somehow we lost the parampara. We lost the parampara. To give you an example, Maharishi as you know, you mentioned also, he had three Indian followers and this is not just westerners doing this; Indian followers. One was Deepak Chopra, so he’s just gone off on his own, because he got some technology and he figured I can make more money myself, by dumping all this stuff about Agama and becoming more sort of clean and universal sameness and all that. Another was Sri Sri Ravi Shankar. He was very close student disciple of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and he’s continued his own movement and another was Prabhakar
Swamiji: Rishi Prabhakar
RM: Rishi Prabhakar who was quite authentic to Maharishi. And one of his students was Jaggi Vasudev. Is that true? That is you can look up online that is true. So Jaggi Vasudev’s Guru’s Guru was Maharishi. But Jaggi Vasudev says that he has nothing to do with Shaastra and he has nothing to do with Parampara. He has just discovered this on his own.
So we find this kind of thing happened to Osho, unfortunately, because after he died some western people who were his devotees were the Osho trustees and they’ve turned the Osho Trust into like a resort, spiritual resort and a club med type of an establishment.
Vivekanand, unfortunately, in the last hundred some years, the Ramakrishna Mission which he started did not produce another Vivekanand. They’ve not been able to replicate Sadashiva or whatever they want to call Sri Ramakrishna, they’ve not been able to produce another one, which is sort of very strange.
Then you look at Sri Aurobindo. Sri Aurobindo was very Vedic, but after he died the Mother took over and with all due respects to her, the point is that they have moved off in another direction. Auroville which is supposed to be manifestation of what Sri Aurobindo wanted is a place where they have drinking and non veg and all that is considered ok. They celebrate Christmas but they do not celebrate Diwali, it is very strange. So I feel that something goes wrong. Generally it becomes a one generation thing, enlightened being.
Then Swami Muktananda, great swami in the Shaktipadh tradition, twenty years after he is dead, some western disciples of his put up a case saying that he abused this and that person; twenty years after he is dead. So then his sangha also breaks up. The brother- sister then they have a fight with each other.
And then there is Laxman Joo from the tradition of Abhinav Gupta, Kashmir Shaivism, when he dies, a man called John Hughes in Los Angeles suddenly pops up and he has hundreds of boxes of Laxman Joo’s all his records, all the old archives, original manuscripts and he lived with Laxman Joo during the... there was a lot of violence in Kashmir in those days, he spent many years living there and when Laxman Joo died, he packed up all this stuff and shipped it to Los Angeles and he claims that this belongs to him.
So then you go on with the fights going on over Prabhupadh in the Isckon and you have Paramananda Yogananda also, so I could go on, but that will become... the details I’ll bring in my book.
My question is that why is it that so many great masters come and they are a one off, they come one off and then they are gone; it is very difficult. What is the secret that we can learn from these people’s mistakes, so we don’t make... because it so important for us to have a parampara, so what should be different so that the same thing doesn’t happen?
Swamiji: See, what I feel should be different is, when I’m young, I’ve started building my parampara.
RM: And you have a good group of Ashram...
Swamiji: Parampara! See the parampara cannot be kept for old age. Unfortunately, just like the rich people, how their whole, when they’re young they are too busy in accumulating wealth. Only when they are old, when they are about to leave, they even think of how to train their kids to carry on that legacy. The legacy part, training enough people to carry on is always considered as a problem of later life. That is one of the biggest blind spot. In my case even though I’m going to live quite a long, many years and I’m young, now I’m only 39. I’m going to be living for many more years. But already I started building the Parampara. I tell you 80% of my time and energy I put for Parampara, only 20% to build the present Sangha.
RM: Because when you are doing transmission...
Swamiji: I strongly believe, what Arunagiri Yogishwara, my Gurus did to me; they did not build an organisation and give me. They made me to decorate the throne, thrones followed me.
RM: Very interesting
Swamiji: I’ll create human beings who will decorate thrones, thrones will follow them. Unfortunately, many Gurus were busy in creating thrones. When they are young they create thrones when they are old they plan for the people who will decorate the thrones. That never is a successful strategy. That is where the blind spot is.
RM: So those who have even a few Shaktis, most of them are not teaching others to have the Shaktis.
Swamiji: I’m very clear, see in anything either you build thrones first, then think of creating people to occupy the throne or you build people who will grace the thrones, then they build the thrones. In any system there will be plus minus, there will be right wrong. But I tell you, many analysing after different Sampradayas, raise and fall, success and failures and everything, I am very clear, first I am going to build the people who grace thrones; like how it was done to me. Then thrones follow.
RM: This is unfortunately, none of the examples I gave put much emphasis on that.
Swamiji: I feel that is what is the blind spot. 80% of my time and energy I am spending only building the next Parampara, the Sampradaya.
RM: And Swamiji this is where I must say that the inner circle of people in the Sangha, the ashram, those who are the Mahants and so on are exceedingly impressive people. Because I go and lived with so many swamis, so many Gurus, done so much process with different ones, I’ve never seen such a deeply devoted link connected, this is a good sign for the level of your teaching and transmission that these people can....
Swamiji: Even if I build only ten square feet I build in stone and plan let it be there for thousands of years.
RM: So it could be that these other people, while Gurus in many ways did not see a very long term perspective.
Swamiji: Yes! Actually they them self may not have had larger vision.
RM: So that requires to think of ‘ok I’m going to build a 1000 year parampara’
Swamiji: I am not going to name anyone or blame anyone; that I will not do. But sometime I feel even some of the Gurus did not have the longer vision of who will carry the legacy.
RM: And that requires being somebody at a state of consciousness who can see beyond the body, beyond many, many lives previous, future, that kind of person then builds a parampara.
Swamiji: I should say, it is more of a gratitude to your Guru and Guru Parampara makes you, pushes you to keep that Parampara alive as a integrity to your Guru. In my case, I have overflowing gratitude to my Guru, I am... I neither have incompletion nor I am going to hide my Gurus and their contributions to me. It is all already out, up, open and it will be documented, recorded, worshipped, revered, respected continuously. So I am from a Sampradaya and I will keep that Sampradaya alive. I am very clear.
RM: And Swamiji, also I am impressed that every time you keep repeating that all this Agama stuff you are saying there is nothing original I’ve done. I’m basically reviving, rediscovering, validating and continuing
Swamiji: That’s all; and sharing it with people.
RM: And sharing it with people. This is simultaneously very humbling and very great. This is a good... very unique quality.
Swamiji: I’m very clear, the whole thing I should say in one line – whatever has been done to me, by my Gurus, I am here to do that to the people who come to me. That’s all.
RM: So, Swamiji, when we discuss all these things about Hindu Dharma
Swamiji: In that way, I can give an assurance to all my disciples and followers, that I will not compromise on my integrity for any reward, award, peace prize, this that nothing. I will be integrated to my Guru and my disciples, keeping the spiritual Adhikaratva, I will not sell my disciple numbers or the people sitting in front of me for any award, reward and compromise. I’m very clear. This time I am very clear, I will be sticking to spiritual Adhikaratva, and no compromise for any award, reward, any nothing; very clear.
RM: This is integrity.
Swamiji: Integrity to my Guru and integrity to my disciples.
RM: Very good. So Swamiji, I wanted to also discuss, a lot of confusion because of language translations that people make. People translate you know that heaven is the same as Swarga and punya, paap is the same as sin. Can you explain differences between swarga and heaven, because... and there is no devil in our system and there is no anti Brahma and there is no anti Shiva like there is anti Christ. And the whole idea of Christianity is that you should be helping Jesus fight the devil or something. We do not have that opponent. There is no duality there.
Swamiji: See, first thing, the whole translation done by western scholars is with the purpose of either the profound Vedic and Hindu thought currents are lower than their thought currents or equivalent. They are not interested in the deeper and larger and broader dimensions explained, expressed in Vedic Agamic literatures and thought currents. For example, Sadashiva cannot be translated as God. God is only generator, operator, destroyer. But Sadashiva does five – generation, operation, managing delusion and liberation. When we do not know delusion and liberation, we do not know the life. Unfortunately, they were able to see only three operations in the life – generation, operation, destruction. They never were able to perceive, conceive anything more than these three. So they framed, created their God – generator, operator, destroyer. I should say God is the projection of man’s mind, Sadashiva projects us from his mind. Sadashiva is much broader, deeper, higher understanding than God. Even for practical purpose Sadashiva should not be translated as God. Because this major two dimension of delusion management and liberation is removed. We do not understand God concept complete.
RM: And our process depends on that.
Swamiji: Our process depends on our understanding. And in every level whether it is a God or even the swarga... Swarga means, whatever you want, you wanted, that swa becomes reality ‘arga’. What you wanted becomes reality and you celebrate, it is not common for all. We need to know, each jeevas swarga is different.
RM: It’s private reality.
Swamiji: It’s private reality, it’s like your home. All homes in that frequency is in one plane. Like a Trishanku can visit Varuna, Varuna can visit Agni, Agni can visit Vayu, but they are all having independent Swargas.
RM: This is a very profound concept.
Swamiji: Swarga, a basic understanding is different from the heaven. Heaven is a multiple apartment complex.
RM: In fact they....
Swamiji: See heaven, all common utility is common.
RM: I in fact went to one of the Mormon head quarters and they were giving me... and trying to convert me. And I made it look like I’m really interested and understanding what’s going on. So they gave me a tour of what is this heaven, almost like a retirement community. So I was asking questions like do we play golf and they said yeah, yeah you will have golf and you know, how many apartments, how big an apartment, they were making it really like some kind of a place where you go and retire. So they have this idea, very silly kind of a, very basic kind of an idea. Swarga is such a more complex and more sophisticated.
Swamiji: Swarga is completely different concept. And in every level we should be very clear, our practitioners translate. We should not swallow the translation word equivalents forced on us by the limited understanding, non practitioners of Hinduism. See they may have two reasons 1) ignorance 2) cunning purposeful waging war through this intellectual distortion. Whatever maybe their purpose we should not allow, especially Hindu Gurus should not go behind Max Mullerians,
RM: Max Muller did a lot of this
Swamiji: And these western non-practitioner translations being accepted by Hindu organisations is the biggest damage done to Hinduism. The whole neo Vedanta Sampradaya, neo Vedantins are the product of the non practitioner’s translation of Hindu text.
RM: Which have been accepted by our own people. That is the problem.
Swamiji: That is where the problem starts. Yes!
RM: Which is where I think the war I’ve been starting, I’ve been trying to do my best in 25 years now. I will be able to take it to a new level from the Agama, where as previously I did it from other levels. But I think understanding the Agama, I will now be able to take that same war to a deeper level or different level. Because this is our foundation, this you cannot translate, mistranslate. Sadashiva can’t be translated, Kali is Kali, Durga is Durga each one of them is so distinct. You cannot substitute. This business of making it same substituted means it gets digested and the digested version is sent back to us, that is the problem.
Swamiji: The every, every concept, the profound concept needs to be translated; not that some equivalent rough word you will find it and impose it on it. Same way, the Shakti and Siddhi, wrong words like occult or the supranormal, paranormal, so those things are being imposed to translate the Shakti and Siddhis which is completely wrong.
RM: And Shakti is not just energy, like electricity or some material
Swamiji: Actually, people tell me oh he’s not, he’s er... Shakti is the same as this supernormal. I tell them very clearly please understand, in Hindu tradition Shakti is normally superb not super normal.
RM: Very good
Swamiji: There’s a big difference, big difference when you say super normal the understandings you impact, create, you create, the impression you create is different, normally superb the understanding you create is different. It not word game or word play; even the understanding. It is not occult; it is not what do you call as this ... paranormal
RM: It is not superstition
Swamiji: Not only not superstition, it is not occult, it is not even this paranormal
RM: So Swamiji, here India has enacted anti superstition laws. This goes right into my next question. These laws, some law or the other, I think the present government signed it. So, lot of things we are learning, they can prosecute as superstition because they’ve taken this model, a western idea of superstition which is a Christian idea what is superstition. So according to them virgin birth is not superstition and Moses parting the ocean is not superstition and Mohammad transcending to heaven from a certain place is not superstition and 72 virgins is not but a lot of Hindu Agama processes, they are saying will be considered superstition. So, this is a very dangerous and Hindu phobia.
Swamiji: It is very unfortunate that we have not educated our own Hindus about the importance of Agama and practices of Agama and even our own practices are prosecuted in our own land is really shocking. And we need to bring the original Shaastras back to life and make the main stream understand, these things which are from Agama cannot be classified as occult or mystic.
RM: Or superstition
Swamiji: superstitious and all that, they are clear science. It is time we fight for Agama to protect our religious freedom.
RM: So Swamiji another example of a very anti Hindu action taken was taken by Vajpayees government, previous government, Hindu government, when they approved the Tehri dam. You see they were wanting to build a dam and convert the Ganga into a lake, which they have done and then make energy, electricity and sell the water and pipelines to Delhi and so on. And there were these people who were huggers of trees, they would not let the trees be cut and they became famous all over the world more for saving trees rather than for the sacred purpose of saving Ganga. So this went on for a decade and the previous government, congress government wanted to build the Tehri dam and these activist would not let it happen. Vajpayee signed the thing finally authorising the Tehri dam to be built.
So this dam, I’ve been there while it was being constructed I went to the... you go from Rishikesh and you have to spend the whole day going around the mountains to the other side and from the top you can get a big view of the Ganga 100-150 miles across and 75 miles this way. It’s a spectacular sight. So they dammed that, made it into a lake and so after that which is a lot of miles up hill from Rishikesh, from there certain sub-sects small portion of the water is sent to Har ki Pauri where pilgrims can bathe and it looks like normal Ganga; but it is actually not very honest because the large majority of Ganga has been diverted from the dam. So I would say the crime they have committed is that Ma Ganga has been turned into a lake, mostly a lake with a small symbolic thing so Hindus will not know. But actually if you look at an aerial picture Ganga does not exist, only during the rain when there is too much water going they open up the whole thing. This is kind of a sad thing because we are removing the sacredness from the ground, from the soil, from the geography.
Swamiji: Especially Ganga is life line for us. It is not just the life line of where Ganga is flowing. I tell you, the remote village in South India, in Tamil Nadu, every village will have a Devi temple with Gangamma, with the name Ganga. I tell you, it’s not that Ganga belongs to only the area where she is flowing. She is our cultural symbol. In remote corner of Tamil Nadu where Ganga is not flowing, you will see at least thousands of people, having the name Ganga and every village will have a temple with the name Gangai amma. From my own family we worship Gangai Amma, the Devi of Ganga. So I think surely it is a very big wrong done to
RM: Hindus need to these things.
Swamiji: Hindus need to know; to our Consciousness it is not right.
RM: Swamiji, another thing is Ramleela, when I was a kid, it was a theatre practiced for one month in the whole town, and everybody would become somebody and then the idea of embodying that character and participating, you know it’s like in a sense embodying Sadashiva to play a role. Everyone felt that way. And so this was a Hindu grand narrative for a very long time was this thing living. Now you just watch a snippet on TV here and there, once in a while, it is not the same thing as living it.
Swamiji: Sure, see I tell you many time I found when my kids, when I tell my kids to play certain puranic drama, when they dress up and they think of that character and study, it leaves such a strong impact on them, they start living that character. They start enjoying that character. Surely, I will propose more Ramleela players in every village and less viewers than one place played and whole group becomes viewers.
RM: Just passive viewers. It is the participation. It is like if one guy is doing yoga and everybody sitting there clapping and watching the yoga then they are not yogis. They are not doing yoga. Yoga is not about watching. So, we have turned into from being suppliers and performers of knowledge, to being the recipients of somebody else’s knowledge, just sitting passively in the class and watching them. This is a very serious colonisation that we’ve been through. So Swamiji, in the end
Swamiji: I have seen in my village also every year they will perform Ramayan and Mahabharat. The whole village that 2 months will not have any other work other than this Ramayan – Mahabharat performance.
RM: This is important
Swamiji: At least 200 people will be involved as some character. And all their 200 families will be the viewers.
RM: Yeah, yeah, yeah so everybody is involved.
Swamiji: Involved and it’s such a fun. And many of the characters even after the drama, they will be known in their local village with that nick name.
RM: You are Laxman, like that.
Swamiji: And known in the nickname; they will be called as Bhimraj, the guy will be really big, Bhim character, his nickname will become Bhimraj.
RM: So Swamiji now I want to, since we are running out of, this has been a phenomenal discussion. I wanted you to respond when people say ‘why does Swamiji have to wear so much jewellery?’ What is the spiritual purpose and function of gold and silver in our tradition because clearly the first thing everybody should know that we among all the traditions in the world have been decorating our deities with these metals. It was not that gold was precious and we gave it to the deities but because we gave it to the deities it became precious. It’s a very important distinction. Hindus wanted to give gold to the deities for a scientific reason which I would like you to explain, for some Agama reason. And because Hindus were, India was an export producer of material goods, metallurgy, medicine, textiles, agriculture, exporter, very rich economy, and other places had nothing useful we wanted. So we wanted to be paid in gold and they would pick up all the gold and in fact, India has got so many times amount of gold than was ever mined within India. Most of the gold in India was brought by others because they wanted our goods. And the reason we wanted the payment in gold is because we wanted to decorate our deities. So, this means that the spirituality value of gold turned it into a world currency. The world gold currency is because of Hinduism, this is actually true. So what in Hinduism wants gold?
Swamiji: In Agama, Sadashiva is very clear each metal has certain quality to hold the higher frequency. So, each metal holds the higher frequency for certain time and the quality level. Gold is the highest, can hold longest period in highest frequency. That is why, gold and even the diamond and silk, all these are used in creating a spiritual battery. I should call roughly, a temple is a spiritual battery, a Mandala. So, not only the deities, even the temples were constructed in gold. We have enough reference, Tanjore temple was completely covered with thick gold sheet. Even now the nail holes are there.
RM: Even in Angkor Vat large parts of it was gold.
Swamiji: Gold! Gold sheeted. So, our purpose of using gold was spiritual that is one. Second, why I am using.... Sadashiva gives a very clear instruction, the 32 various jewelleries I am supposed to wear during initiation. See I follow Agamic tradition. Allow me to follow my tradition. I am neither interested in gold nor I hate gold. It is simple instruction. Sadashiva said, I’m using. I am not life escapist, life negative Vedanti who can’t touch gold. Same way I’m not materialist who is interested in gold. Sadashiva is very clear the rudraksha need to be energised and covered with gold. And I want to tell you I don’t wear any gold jewellery, I wear rudraksha jewellery covered with gold. There is no jewellery on me which does not have rudraksha. So it is very clear we use for spiritual purpose; and gold as showing off only for the poor fellows who don’t know spirituality. Here I’m showing off Sadashiva’s instruction; not the gold. It is very clear from my side - only what is required as per the Agama I’m using. Anybody can disprove that I’m not using as per Agama I’m ready to give it up.
RM: So, basically gold is primarily a spiritual metal.
Swamiji: Where the energy can be stored and shared and like a transformer.
RM: So Swamiji it’s like in silicon, in semi conductors, certain metals are used for scientific purpose for the properties and these metals have become rare. So their value has gone up. It is not that they were collectors’ items for fun; they have a scientific reason. So in that sense gold has a spiritual purpose.
Swamiji: Actually gold can be programmed. It can hold our thought current, energy current and radiate it for quite a long time. And I also want to tell you, the people who criticize I am wearing jewellery, are they interested in purifying Hinduism? No! They are trying to attack me as I’m a symbol of Hinduism.
RM: They are looking for an opportunity.
Swamiji: They are only trying to use me to beat Hinduism. They are not interested in purifying Hinduism. If somebody is interested in purifying Hinduism and if they send any criticism, I will surely take that as a constructive criticism. See, if we are ready to accept the authority of the Shaastra Pramana, from the Shaastra Pramana I welcome any criticism I will take that as a constructive criticism and I am ready to look into Shaastra, reference and debate, do Vakyartha sadas. I have all my sympathy, love and respect and welcome. But if you are not interested in Shaastra Pramana, forget about me. I am in no way interested in engaging with you. I am very clear with that. I am very clear.
RM: So this is towards the end so what I want to say to all those who are viewing, all the viewers, because many times when in the past they criticized me for interviewing you or why I am fond of this or that, I just want you to be very clear, all my viewers, those who are not interested in understanding Hinduism with an open mind.
Swamiji: Shaastra Pramana!
RM: Shaastra Pramana.Who are not interested in honest investigation in order to learn, understand that these practices are consistent with the Shaastras and also willing to come and take a look at evidence that these things work. Those people even if they call themselves Hindus and activists I reject them and I really don’t want them as my followers. And last time I want to say this. I mean, for me it is a very clear choice. Last time when I interviewed Swamiji, quite a lot of people started abusing me and so on. So I told my moderators ‘go delete all of them and ban all of them’. And lot of them said ‘oh, you know, it is very bad for you. We are your friends, we are your followers. Please listen to me. What you are doing is very dangerous; your followers will leave you.’ We probably banned and got rid of maybe 1000 people from my Facebook. But within a few months my number of followers doubled. Yeah! So I just warn all the people who are watching, who may have these kind of thoughts and ideas, that it will be a great favour to me, you just get going, go somewhere else. You don’t follow me. Because I have to follow what I consider as to be my process, my path and let it lead me to various places. And if you don’t want to then you guys can leave. I have no problem with that.
And the final comment is... the second thing lot of people say is ‘why aren’t you interviewing that Guru and that Guru and that Guru?’ Well, let me tell you, it is not out of negative thing toward any Guru. We have no problem with any other Guru. It is because many of those people you are naming are not interested in being interviewed, so openly and honestly and in a very... with no holds barred open approach. And rather than telling me to go interview this or that Guru, you should have them invite me and I will be happy to go ask them all these questions. I want to ask questions about the relationship of Hinduism with Agama, Agama and Hinduism, with Hinduism and science, yoga and science. What is digestible, what is not digestible? And I find that when I start getting into such details many of them just don’t want to. And this is why I enjoy my dialogues and conversations and Q&As with Swamiji because he has never said don’t ask this and don’t go into that. It’s very open between us and I’m so delighted and honoured that you give me this chance.
Swamiji: Thank you Rajeevji, thank you. My final comments are, see, if anybody is interested in Shaastra Pramana, I accept Vedas and Agamas as Shaastra. In Shaastra Pramana I welcome you for dialogue, debate, understanding, question-answer, any relationship I welcome. And I am interested to be complete with you. Anybody, who is ready accepting the authority of the Shaastra Pramana and scientific temperament, I welcome. I am here, come explore, engage, entertain and get enlightened and enjoy.
RM: So Swamiji, I just want to say that the whole movement of revival of the Agamas and Hinduism from it has reached the tipping point in our favour; because you have been so strong. I think that the other side are on the run, they are not able to face. They have no logic or intelligence to face, and tomorrow we are having a discussion, which takes this to the next step on the whole Kurukshetra and what not. I think today is a good, solid, spiritual, philosophical foundation for tomorrows discussion, on the whole global Kurukshetra, and what we must do to defend our Gurus. Because defending our Gurus is the most important part of defending Hindu Dharma.
Swamiji: Thank you Rajeevji. So the last statement which I want to make, which is always the first statement ‘Sanatana Hindu Dharma is real.’
RM: Yes! Thank you Swamiji. Thank you.
Swamiji: Thank you. Be blissful.